Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 6th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Mr. Kitchen.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you both for coming back to visit us and thank you for your reports. After I read them I said to myself, were they sitting in all our committee meetings? A lot of the information we've heard here.

Your report is very good, and I appreciate it and your comments on medically releasing members, not releasing them until such time as all the benefits are in place and all the processes are there.

Throughout this committee we've heard from a number of organizations that have presented to us on the services they've been providing for veterans and for our releasing soldiers. A lot of these services are volunteer. Not to negate your proposal of having a concierge service, because I think that's a great idea, but the thought that pops into my head right now is, if all of a sudden you're creating what we would like to see being done, what about all these volunteer organizations that are out there providing a lot of these services, that are helping veterans go through the steps that they need to go through, the endless paperwork with someone actually sitting there with them to do that paperwork, or dealing with getting the services that they need and are entitled to? Can you comment on where you see that role might be for those organizations, and how they might perhaps roll into part of what you're doing?

[Gary Walbourne]

When I talk about a concierge service, I think there are certain obligations we have under legislation, under policy, and under regulation. When I talk about the concierge service, it's because we need to get the releasing member what they're entitled to.

What the third parties do—my hat is off to all of them—is good work, but it's a very diverse group of people. They're offering different services and different benefits. I do believe that the Office of the Veterans Ombudsman has compiled a list of all third party providers in the country. I guess the question would have to go to him. What's their plan for that list to show what services are offered, and how are you going to have access to them? I believe the third parties play a critical role in what we do. It's value added, in my opinion, for the releasing member, and I'm sure for the veterans, once they find themselves associated with one of those organizations.

I believe there's a role for them. I do worry a little about how many there are, how much they're doing, and where they're involved, and sometimes they may be stepping into where the government should be doing something. Those are my concerns, but I do not have enough visibility. I would suggest that Guy Parent, who has done a study on third parties, may be able to provide you with some of those answers.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you.

Your third recommendation talked about a tool to be there. I'm not a computer guy, but there are a lot of people who are. There are a lot of veterans who aren't. The younger generation is much more attuned to that, and so they find that those issues are much easier for them.

Can you describe that tool for us and what you see it doing? We've talked about providing the information on the benefits that soldiers should be getting from the day they enlist and having some program that's following them through as they go to the very end.

I'm assuming that the tool would probably be part of that. It would have some of that information on that. I'm assuming we're talking that this would be a secure tool that only the soldier could access continuously to know where they are as they progress through the command.

[Gary Walbourne]

There are two things here.

First of all, Veterans Affairs Canada has My VAC Account. They do track the application process, where it is in the stream, and so forth. That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is when a Canadian Armed Forces member is releasing, there are many things at the end of a career, penson being one, and last posting being a another. All those things should be common knowledge to everybody. There is no one-base IT platform where someone could go to look up departmental orders or compensation and benefit indexes. I think we need to bring that information together because it is part of the full package that the member needs to understand is in the realm of the possible prior to release. That's what I'm talking about.

Sometimes you can walk into an orderly room in Vancouver and ask a question, and ask the same question in St John's, Newfoundland, and you're going to get two different answers. That's no one's fault. It's just because, again, orders change, and they never get shared, or whatever that might be.

I think that's the type of platform I'm talking about. To carry that further, at that point in time, there could be a very easy transition or connection with My VAC Account, or once the member has all the information while serving, they transfer over to Veterans Affairs Canada. My VAC Account is there, which is a fairly robust tool that's getting better all the time. That's the tool I'm talking about.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

That's what I'm trying to lead into, amalgamating your tool with VAC's tool so that it's a smooth transition right there. We've talked about having a number that the soldier gets from the moment they enlist following them right through to the end so they don't end up changing numbers, because that is confusing. Do you see a potential there? Is there a way that it might be something to start, if it hasn't been started?

[Gary Walbourne]

I do believe that's where we need to end up. I think you've nailed it. I'm not an IT guy. My VCR is still flashing 12:00. I do believe that what technology allows us now is to build a platform that we can use as an education tool and a benefit tool while the member is serving. The connection to My VAC Account, I think, would be the next logical step.

There was talk this morning about a veteran's ID card. One of the questions that came up was what number would be used. Someone suggested that we use the service number the member gets and carry it through.

There are other people thinking along the same lines. I believe that tool that we have would be for the serving member, and then the liaison to VAC or the third parties, I think, would be all in the realm of the possible.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Mr. Rioux, please.

I believe you might split the time with Ms. Lockhart.

[Jean Rioux, Liberal, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here today.

First of all, Mr. Walbourne, I want to congratulate you on your report. It is very reasonable and, most of all, what it contains can be realized quickly. I have a question for you about that.

When you said that the Armed Forces already keep medical reports for members who leave the military for health reasons, there is one question that crossed my mind. Wouldn't there be a conflict of interest there? To reduce costs, is it possible that the recommendations in the military's reports aren't necessarily favourable to the veterans?

[Gary Walbourne]

Thank you for the question. It's a difficult one.

We talked earlier about resources and what would be required. I do believe that the surgeon general's shop may need some additional resources to help with this, but we need to go back to the beginning. When an accident or an injury takes place, the Canadian Armed Forces fills out a document called the “CF 98”. On that document, you tell where and when the soldier got hurt. If the soldier was on service at the time, that's enough, in my opinion.

I don't see a conflict of interest. These medical officers are professionals. They're honourable. We ask them to do the worst, at times, and the best for this country, so I don't think we're talking about conflict of interest. I do believe there is a concern—there would be empathy, I understand that—but I think professional codes of conduct and service would override.

We can't continue to build systems for the exceptions. The general rule is that an honest group of people is trying to do an honest job. Are there some maligners in the system? Yes. You can find them anywhere in society. But I think we have at times built the system for the exception and not the rule.

[Jean Rioux, Liberal, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you. Your answer is most reassuring.

I will turn things over to my colleague.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Ms. Lockhart.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

I think we can all agree that your report encompasses a lot of what we heard. There's one thing I want to ask you about, though.

We heard from several veterans that they find it difficult, because of PTSD or other conditions, to return to base, or that as soon as they were on PCat or went to JPSU, they felt it was all downhill from there. How do you see us coming around to a positive transition in those cases?

[Gary Walbourne]

Thank you for the question. It's a great one.

I think this goes directly to the concierge service. There are a few things we need to remember. Though a member may be suffering a malady, they are still individuals. They should be allowed to self-actualize some of what their future looks like. If a member can't return to a base because it triggers a certain malady, then we'll meet them off base. I think I heard the chief of the defence staff say that it's people first, from here out, so if a member needs to be accommodated in a different way....

That's why I'm saying that the concierge service is a personalized service. Not everybody gets “box A”. We go to the needs of the releasing member. What do they need? I hear of cases all the time where they don't want to go back to the base. They don't want to be around their comrades. We should allow them that luxury because of the malady they have, and accommodate them where they need to be met.

That's my opinion on the concierge service.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

I appreciate that. I think it's something we have to consider in the approach forward.

One of my other colleagues asked you about medical service, about lining it up and having a doctor before being released, which is also a service we haven't heard consistently from the veterans we've seen. In fact we had a veteran in earlier this week who talked about a two-year wait from the time they released until the time they were able to get a family doctor.

I don't know where the disconnect is there either, but there appears to be one.

[Gary Walbourne]

Was that to get a family doctor?

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

Yes.

[Gary Walbourne]

I'd say he was probably right.

What I'm saying is that the malady for which he's releasing, that continuing care, has to be in place, whether it's through Calian or wherever they're contracting these medical professionals from. The malady and the maintenance of that has to be in place prior to release, and probably not through a family doctor.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you for that clarification as well.

I think I'm good. You're very efficient in your answers. Usually we run out of time.

[The Vice-Chair (Mr. Robert Kitchen), Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Ms. Lockhart.

We'll now go to five minutes, beginning with Mr. Clarke.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Vice-Chair.

Mr. Walbourne and Ms. Hynes, it's very good to see you here.

I would like to start with the joint personnel support unit. This is directly in your branch, as the ombudsman of DND.

Am I wrong or right that there are two end results possible with JPSU? You either rehabilitate through the services or you get out of the army. My understanding is that we keep it as an unknown end, for the most part. It's not clear from the beginning. But should there be a diagnosis right at the beginning that this member will most probably never come back and thus we should engage right away in filling in the forms and getting ready for the release? That way, as soon as the two years end, the benefits would start coming in and the services would start right away.

I might be wrong, but it seems to me like there's an unknown waiting time.

[Gary Walbourne]

Once the medical malady is discovered and has been reported, the member will go to TCat they call it, which is a temporary category. At that point medical attention is brought to bear, rehabilitation, physiotherapy, whatever that may be, and the person may almost be ready. He'll then get an extension to another TCat probably and stay there until he returns to work.

You are right that probably after a temporary category when the member has gone permanent, and once they go permanent category, or PCat as they call it, that's the point when we know the member is leaving the service. That's where I think the concierge needs to get involved, and we have some time before the member leaves. Unless the member is really in a rush to get out, it's usually six months.

I'm saying that's where the concierge engages and starts to build that relationship and starts to explain the potential avenues for the releasing member.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay. Did you ever hear any comments on the VAC and the DND staff? Do they work closely together? How is the relationship? Do you have anything to say about that in the JPSU?

[Gary Walbourne]

I know there is a VAC presence in the JPSU. I know they engage at various times, depending on the member and the malady. I think it's a good thing to have that type of presentation on the ground to be able to respond to questions.

I think they work extremely well together. They try to find ways to make things move as quickly as possible. I don't believe there's any problem with the working relationship between the two at the JPSU.