Evidence of meeting #44 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was military.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON
Is it a qualification issue? You can certainly speak to the back end of it. Are we preparing our Canadian Forces members, our veterans coming—
Cmdre Sean Cantelon
We can absolutely speak to that. That's the point that Captain Langlois was talking about, the ability to take that unique military jargon and turn it into what a civilian is, how to go from describing repairing a tank in the battlefield to using it in the vernacular of renovating a house, because most Canadians understand renovating a house. Those are the tools we're aiming to create.
Resumé writing, all these programs are offered through the second career assistance network that I touched on in my introductory remarks. We need to enhance and professionalize that, and we're doing that now. We're going to do more and more and better and better, bringing better tools and working with partners like MET Canada that does an online webinar about how to do an interview, how to explain yourself. The cases of application often aren't a lack of capability, it's often how to express yourself as in any job interview and to be the successful candidate. We're addressing that inside the Canadian Forces.
Conservative
John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON
I think it's a critical element of it, Commodore, because we're in the pursuit of understanding mental health and suicide issues amongst veterans. That transitional aspect, the sense of belonging, is not just within the military but outside of the military, and employment plays an important role in that part of it.
Thank you, sir.
Liberal
David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Thank you, Commodore and Captain. I note your ribbons and that you have a couple of service medals from the Middle East.
I have a number of questions. I think we have to tie back to one of my favourite books, Catch-22. In Catch-22, Yossarian cannot get his section 8, in the American parlance, because if he says he's crazy, they know he's not crazy, but if he doesn't say it, they know he is. Either way, he's stuck there.
If I'm a member of the armed forces and I think I'm suffering from mental illness, what kinds of barriers are there to my dealing with it, in terms of a catch-22?
Cmdre Sean Cantelon
This goes back to the stigmatism piece. The barriers ultimately, I think, in all of our society are how you seek help. That's the culture piece we're working very hard on. There are no physical barriers. There are no barriers to going into the hospital, identifying that you're having difficulties, and getting those services. The surgeon general would be able to explain to you the whole program there.
There's no one saying you can't go. All you need to say is, “Sergeant, PO, Commodore, I need to drop into the hospital tomorrow.” That's it. No one asks why. If you have a close work relationship, someone might ask that, but at the end of the day, it's up to the individual. Once they're in, they have the programs and services that our health care system provides. That goes back to us, as a leadership team and as the Canadian Forces, to work hard on this culture, just as we're doing throughout the nation through the idea that a bandage that's invisible around your head is equal to a bandage around a broken arm from tobogganing on the weekend.
Liberal
David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC
That's fair, but my point is that if somebody is feeling mentally ill, and they know that if they go and get treatment, they'll be identified by the military structure as having mental illness and therefore not being fit to serve, they continue to serve in order to avoid being kicked out because they have an illness. The closest metaphor in civilian life is a whistle-blower. If you come forward, you have to be protected. Is there any protection for that kind of person?
Capt(N) Marie-France Langlois
The OSISS program, which is a peer support program, is a confidential program, and the chain of command is not aware of the interaction between peers and the people who are supported. Often, this is the first step towards moving forward and seeking some medical help because these are people who have lived the same experience. Those kinds of programs, the same as Soldier On, are peer building and spirit building, and sometimes it takes that first step to be able to be referred or to accept to move forward and see that it's going to improve well-being.
For sure, those programs are beneficial.
Cmdre Sean Cantelon
There's a connection in your question that I would break up a bit on the assumption that, just because I go and get mental health in uniform.... I was involved, when I worked in the Arctic, in the crash of First Air 6560, which was the 737 that, unfortunately, missed the runway and impacted into the hill in the middle of Operation Nanook, and we lost a number of people. I was the on-scene responder. I've had, personally, over the years, some issues with that, and I've dealt with that through medical assistance. That has not precluded me in my ability to proceed. In fact, it's no different than someone who may have had an alcohol difficulty or has recovered from a physiological musculoskeletal injury if they do their rehab, if they are able to function.
A mental health illness does not automatically mean a release from the Canadian Armed Forces. We've had other generals who have spoken and other chief warrant officers who have spoken about their own individual.... You manage and move forward. That's the key, so I want to break that assumption that, just because you go to see the psychologist or social worker with a problem, that automatically leads to release. I think the more we have those cases, the more we talk about the fact that you can move forward in your life and you can be a functioning member, and there's no restriction in regard to promotion, etc., the better off.... That's the culture piece I talked about earlier.
Liberal
David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC
You talked earlier about when somebody is ready to take off the uniform. How do you know when somebody is ready to take off the uniform, medically? If somebody is in a medical position where the military feels they have to take it off and they're not ready to do that, how do you deal with that?
Cmdre Sean Cantelon
You've asked a medical question. Neither of us are medical officers, so we can't speak to that. We could speak to the process.
Capt(N) Marie-France Langlois
Yes. If somebody has a medical employment limitation that will breach universality of service, at that time they will likely have to transition out. The process of transition can take between six months and up to three years, depending on the complexity of the needs of the individual. For sure, with the work and efforts that we're doing with the transition piece right now at CAF and at Veterans Affairs, we want to make sure that the member is ready to transition out.
You have to meet the universality of service. Sometimes people don't meet the universality of service but can be employed in the CAF, can be retained for up to three years as well, and be employed in that capacity. It can vary between six months and three years.
Liberal
David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC
We've talked a lot in the last few weeks—I've only been on this committee for a few weeks—about how a new soldier, a new person coming into the military, goes through basic training, which breaks them down into a military person, but there's no similar process where they're intensively brought back into civilian life. Would you agree with that assessment?
Liberal
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
That was a quick answer. I might give you more time on that one.
I'm trying to understand JPSU. It's a combination. If an individual comes in who cannot serve at that time, their goal is probably to be restored to a full career and go back, or there's a chance, if they're going to recognize that they cannot continue on with that universality, that they become a veteran.
VAC and CAF are working together on this. How is that decision made? Who is the one who makes the final decision that you have to go this way or that way? In my mind, I'm thinking that, if it looks like they're being restored, it would be through the Canadian Armed Forces that the final decision is made. If the decision is being made that they have to leave, it should be VAC that makes the final decision that they're ready to make that move.
Capt(N) Marie-France Langlois
The decision to transition out or to remain in the forces is an administrative decision that's made by the director, military career administration, and it's based on whether the medical employment limitation meets the universality of service or not.
Conservative
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
Okay. We're dealing here with mental illness and suicide, and there are clearly dynamics of mental illness connected to circumstances like what you went through. That is a situation where you hit a crisis, and it's part of your life now. We also hear a lot about the frustrations of the release process that you're trying to fix with the seamless move. Then I'm thinking, why are we releasing them into the veteran world before they have a family doctor, before their house is retrofitted, without any money, and they have to wait months before they get paid? This has increased their stress levels.
Then also, there is the part of it that my friend was mentioning where, in speaking to some of those who are helping vets in transition programs, we prepare them, we condition them to a fight-flight mentality and a change in their sleep patterns, but then we expect them to somehow transition back into what the rest of us do, like stay up late because we want to. They're not prepared, yet they can be. There are ways that they can be reprogrammed—that's a bad term—to be able to sleep without that sense of fight or flight. Why are we releasing them without giving them that gift, which I think would change a lot of their mental stress around trying to recondition into normal civilian life?
Cmdre Sean Cantelon
It's a big question. I'll start at the top. The chief has been very clear. We're going to professionalize the transition services. Part of that answer speaks exactly to your question about the right time to go. Captain Langlois explained the current processes and the rationale behind breach of universality of service. We are working with our VAC colleagues to enhance it so that, as they go through that transition process, they become, for lack of a better term, more civilianized where they need to be civilianized, but keep enough of the military so that they don't have that identity piece that has been asked about before.
Depending upon their career, where they live, and where they are in the country, there are various challenges with that. If you live in a very large military base in a very isolated location, such as Petawawa—well, Petawawa's not isolated—or Wainwright, it's fundamentally different than if you live here in Ottawa, where you blend in.
Cmdre Sean Cantelon
Yes, Saskatchewan and Moose Jaw. That's part of that professionalization program and process where we're working hard to close the seam and the gaps. I can't speak to the specific time of when to release. There are options under consideration to address how long you stay.
Can I address one minor point on the income?
