Evidence of meeting #61 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was france.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Thank you.
I would like to go back to the topic of military pensions. We know that the system of military disability pensions is quite complex in Canada, but I am sure that the same goes for France.
How many of your veterans have the military disability pension as their sole source of income?
Project Manager, General Secretariat for Administration, Ministère des Armées
It can happen, but it is not likely to be the most common situation. Often, a retirement pension comes on top of a disability pension. The two are cumulative. Perhaps we could imagine the situation you are describing if a soldier had a very short period of activity and was therefore not eligible for a retirement pension.
Project Director to the Executive Director, Office national des anciens combattants et victimes de guerre, ministère des Armées
Let me add some specifics to what Commissioner Coyo has just said.
We were talking earlier about the veteran's card. As soon as anyone carrying that card reaches 65, they become eligible for what we call a veteran's retirement allowance. Today, that allowance is 750 euros a year.
Project Director to the Executive Director, Office national des anciens combattants et victimes de guerre, ministère des Armées
It is not a huge amount, I agree. You cannot live on 750 euros a year, but it is still something additional that you are eligible for only after 65.
Project Manager, General Secretariat for Administration, Ministère des Armées
I would like to add something if I may.
We have a kind of group benefits system. It is an additional retirement system, if you like, which enables veterans to make contributions during their careers and accumulate a nest egg when the careers end. There are also many tax provisions that allow veterans to lighten their tax burdens.
September 26th, 2017 / 9:10 a.m.
Liberal
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to you all for being here.
There are clearly two different realities, for French veterans and Canadian veterans, so forgive me if I ask questions that may not necessarily be pertinent. I understand that your veterans can pay into a pension fund and that they collect that when they leave the services, when they're no longer in the forces. So they may go out and work or find other ways to supplement their income. Then at age 65, the additional pension of 750 euros kicks in.
In the case of veterans who leave the service, we've noted that it sometimes takes a very long time for a serious injury to manifest itself, whether it be a physical injury, an emotional injury, or a mental health injury.
To qualify for benefits, do veterans need proof to determine whether or not an injury is service-related? Do your veterans have to demonstrate that an injury occurred during their time of service to the country, or does the burden of proof fall on the government or the military?
Project Manager, General Secretariat for Administration, Ministère des Armées
If I understand you correctly, you want to know whether the burden of proof falls to the administration or to the injured soldier.
Today, it is up to soldiers to prove that their injury is service-related, except if the injury happened during an external operation. In that case, the burden of proof is reversed and falls to the administration.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you.
If there is a dispute, do you have a system of appeals in regard to those benefits, and if so, how does it work?
Project Manager, General Secretariat for Administration, Ministère des Armées
Yes, absolutely. We have a recourse system, which is primarily non-adversarial and lets soldiers try to prove that their injuries really are service-related. Thereafter, if there is a dispute or a disagreement, they can go to the military pensions tribunals.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you.
I want to get back to the mental health supports. We're very able to identify physical injuries, but sometimes emotional injuries are not so apparent. What kind of mental health support services are available for veterans, and do those services include the veterans' families? If a veteran is suffering, his or her family is most certainly suffering too. Are services available and do they extend to family members?
Project Manager, General Secretariat for Administration, Ministère des Armées
In France, we have what we call Écoute défense. This is a telephone help system that operates around the clock and that can respond to wounded soldiers in possible distress. The line is also open to families.
What I am describing is an emergency line that can help someone at critical moments. But there is also long-term support. That is run by the Service de santé des armées. The service provides psychiatrists and psychologists whose responsibility is to provide long-term support to soldiers and families.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Would those armed forces health services be available to veterans after they're out of the armed forces? I'm wondering, because here there's rather a divide. When you're in service, the military doctors look after you and your family; when you're outside, it becomes civilian doctors. Do you have that same situation?
Project Director to the Executive Director, Office national des anciens combattants et victimes de guerre, ministère des Armées
Yes. If they participated in the ONACVG operations, the veterans who left the service may, in cases of difficulty or distress, use the office's outreach services. The office has an agreement with the Service de santé des armées. In cases of medical or psychological distress, veterans can consult a doctor or psychologist from the Service de santé des armées. Even once they have left the service, they can continue to take advantage of some medical, even psychological, assistance through the ONACVG.
NDP
Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you.
It sounds as though you have good collaboration between the two systems.
That's one of the problems we've encountered here. Very often once veterans have been discharged or transitioned out, they can't find the kinds of supports outside in the civilian medical system that were available to them on the inside.
Liberal
Liberal
Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Thank you.
I have some questions about PTSD—I think in French it's trouble de stress post-traumatique—and also homelessness among veterans, sans-abri.
In the first case, we heard about the Algerian war. I have very vivid memories of the war in Indochina, the fall at Dien Bien Phu. We found in Canada that there was PTSD in large measure after Afghanistan. The Americans suggest that they still have a large cohort of suicide victims from Vietnam.
Was there identification of PTSD following the fall in Indochina or Algeria? What is your experience with PTSD?
Project Director to the Executive Director, Office national des anciens combattants et victimes de guerre, ministère des Armées
You are referring to the Indochina War period. To this day, the Office issues Viet Minh prisoner cards. You also mentioned Dien Bien Phu, where thousands of French soldiers were taken prisoner in 1954. Many of them were interned in Viet Minh camps. You may be aware of the detention conditions in those camps. A number of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) cases were reported soon afterwards, and some are still being reported today. People still go to the Office to request a former Viet Minh prisoner card for PTSD, and possession of the card comes with a selection of rights.
Project Manager, General Secretariat for Administration, Ministère des Armées
If I may, I would like to add something.
Yes, some injured soldiers may not have reported a psychological trauma initially. They report the physical injury, but not a psychological injury. The military disability pension system allows them to claim a worsening of their injury five or 10 years later in order to report a psychological injury.
In that process, the veterans associations have a fundamental role to play because they know how to identify individuals in distress. We try to collaborate and forge ties with those associations.
Liberal
Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
That leads to another problem we have—so I'm interested in the French experience—which is homelessness, in veterans who have chosen to basically hide from the world. They're very difficult to find, because they're trained to be deceptive and to hide themselves. What is the case in France? Is there a similar group who have chosen not to engage with the system but to basically disappear?
Project Director to the Executive Director, Office national des anciens combattants et victimes de guerre, ministère des Armées
In France, nothing compares to what the U.S. and Canada have experienced with respect to the homeless. The regional network I mentioned earlier helps individuals in distress to find a local support service.
Let me add one thing. It is important to realize that those regional services, those local services, work closely with other government services, particularly the prefects. I'm not sure whether the Canadian system is similar to the French system, but the ONACVG works extensively with the prefects, who have specific responsibility in the area of housing. In France, prefects have quotas for housing that they can assign. Since we work well with the prefects, we may very well turn to them to try to find housing when a veteran is homeless and in distress.
