Veterans Affairs Committee on April 21st, 2016

[Ray McInnis]

It's not a problem for us at the moment. I see more problems with.... Again it's tooting our own horn, I guess, but we've been in this business for a long time. All our command service officers are ex-military. I must say one positive change in the past few years is the department's favourable rate when it comes to different types of musculoskeletal injuries and cumulative joint trauma, and they're now paying more attention to the task statement for individual trades.

Yes, it was difficult before, trying to get favourable outcomes based on sports injuries in the military or sports cumulative joint trauma, or even just the fact that you'd been in the military for 35 years and jumped out of airplanes or were in a combat trade—broken knees, broken back, all part of the process. It's not idiot-proof by any means, because I have served in regiments where people were in there for 25 years and didn't jump out of airplanes, and they were in combat service trades as well.

It's been a positive improvement to date, but we still have to make the link to service.

[Jim Scott]

From Equitas, our experience in looking at these 200 files that have gone to a law firm and are representative of claims is that the transfer from DND to Veterans Affairs Canada suggests there seems to be a bit of an attitude that Veterans Affairs Canada is going to screen out bogus claims. Therefore, they're putting a very high onus on the veteran to show that these are in fact legitimate claims.

Especially when we deal with post-traumatic stress, I still think there's a culture that we don't believe it in many cases and we feel the candidate may simply be looking for some money after having done a tour of duty and not having secured income on returning to Canada. That's an uphill battle, especially for people who.... It is worsening their situation to have to show that they're sick over and over again.

My background is in the policing world, and when something happens to an officer, the organizations rally around that person. When I look at the soldiers, although I'm an outsider looking in, I see it as very adversarial in many cases. The soldier who is disabled now is almost on trial as to why they're asking for this government assistance. In cases of amputation, it's clear, but when you start to get into mental health, the lines get very blurry.

I think sometimes you get a caseworker who is sympathetic to you and things will go well, but if you get one that's skeptical, all things are going to end and you're going to end up appealing, and that process.... We have seen people who have been in the same vehicle as those who have been injured, yet they've had two different settlement packages.

Maybe....

[Brian McKenna]

Continuing on with the question, one of the things that the Veteran Affairs Department often says is that veterans have the benefit of the doubt. I really ask that the committee look into that to see whose definition we're going with.

I would say that the level of evidence is too high. Today, if there's a city work crew outside here, there will be someone standing back simply observing safety. In military training we certainly do that as well, and those people can provide evidence statements, but when you're on operations, sir, there's nobody there who has nothing to do but watch. It doesn't work that way. The commander is commanding. The two ICs are watching the IR screen, the driver drives, the gunner guns, and when that hatch breaks and falls on the back of your neck, no one is there to see it, so the level of evidence that's being demanded is sometimes unattainable.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Next is Mr. Eyolfson, and I believe you might be splitting with Mr. DeCourcey.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

That's right, yes, I am.

Thank you. I thank you all for coming.

We're talking about PTSD, and it is good to see this is being recognized by more and more authorities and that we're starting to recognize that substance abuse is often the first indicator that this is going on.

Regarding addressing mental illness and PTSD—and I'll ask both groups—at this point now, do you think this is being adequately addressed?

[Brian McKenna]

I'll take the first shot at that.

I don't have any problem telling the entire group that I've been diagnosed with PTSD. It's been something else to try to work through it. I think it's being addressed, but I think we're playing catch-up. There is a lot of history of not addressing it, so we're finally coming around to it. It is going to be a cultural change.

Look at any cultural change that the departments have had to go through. A good example would be making all the jobs in the Canadian Forces open to women. It happened almost 20 years ago, but a change like this can take over a decade to creep its way through all levels of the chain of command. I suggest the same thing is happening with mental health.

As to substance abuse, one thing I'd like to bring to your attention is that there essentially isn't a substance abuse plan. Folks in the department will say that there is, but our experience is different. The department winds up punting—I use the football term—to the civilian sector. We've had soldiers with traumatic situations that have led to substance abuse, and they wind up going to the civilian sector for care, where they are surrounded by people who have been sentenced to that care facility. I use that word on purpose: “sentenced”.

If you have two combat vets who are stressed beyond belief because of what they've gone through overseas sitting at a table with a bunch of convicts, the chances of their broaching the subject, their problem, and getting healthier is minimal. That's why we've been telling the government to acknowledge the situation and bring in some veteran-centric programming, modelled after the VTN that the Legion put forward.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you.

[Brad White]

The Legion brought forward the VTN in 1999, before people were accepting operational stress injuries as an issue. I agree totally with what Brian has said.

We've made a lot of strides forward. We have a lot more to go. The issue we now have to tackle is the stigma associated with mental health issues. We still have young soldiers out there who will not disclose, because they're afraid of letting their buddies down. They're afraid of losing their jobs. You go to the JPSU, you're gone. That's the mentality out there. Once you hit that system, you're out of it. You've lost your job, your life, your whole career.

If you think it's bad in the military, take a look at the RCMP. It's horrendous there. I know; I have two sons in the RCMP.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

I can appreciate that. My father was an RCMP veteran, so I completely understand what you're saying.

At this point, I'll give my remaining time to Mr. DeCourcey.

[Matt DeCourcey, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Gentlemen, I thank you for your testimony, for your service to Canada and the work you do every day for veterans and for Canadians.

I come from a riding that houses Base Gagetown, the largest training base in the country, home to a lot of young veterans and their families returning from recent conflicts. I've seen a number of peer-support organizations, trauma centres, take root in the community. My question for the Legion is, are you working with those organizations at all?

Mr. Scott, you talked about the important role that family plays in support and care for loved ones. You mentioned the need for income stability and security for families, possibly better training to provide care, as well as family peer support. Can you talk about the decisions the government should be taking to provide that level of care for family caregivers?

[Jim Scott]

We've had a number of amputees stay with us, and it's surprising how much care it takes just to put them into the washroom when the washroom is not big enough to get the wheelchair in. They have to sit on a stool that is pushed through by their spouse, and the wheelchair has to go back in the car after they've gotten in.

We've seen that the spouse becomes a permanent caregiver, but they don't have the training. We talked to one spouse who had to check herself into a hospital for two months after having an emotional breakdown because she wasn't able to care for her husband. They also realize they will never be financially secure again, and this puts tremendous stress on the family.

I think we need to have training and support for the families. One spouse said that when they were having their house upgraded, they were taken advantage of by contractors because they did not know the cost of putting a ramp into the house. They had a certain amount of money and it was almost like con men taking advantage of them, because this was her first time administering money on behalf of a disabled person. They need training and they need a support, an advocate. We have to consider that they will be poor after this process.

[Brian McKenna]

Sir, we need to take into account a term we call the cost of being crippled, if I could briefly put that out there.

If today you go home and you want a new ceiling fan, you'll just go buy it and put it in, but if we have an amputee, there's the cost of a ceiling fan and now $400 to bring an electrician in to put it in. There are no seat sales on a vacation for your family that are going to accommodate a service dog like I have on the floor here, or a specialized wheelchair. The cost of being crippled is hard to write down, but very present for the families, and that's something that needs to be addressed in the department as well, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Mrs. Wagantall is next.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you all very much for being here today. I appreciate everything I'm hearing and learning. I know everyone on this committee wants to see improvements on your behalf, so thank you so much.

I have a question in a bit of a different direction. Homelessness was mentioned. I know the Legion is working in that area, and it's been front and centre on the news somewhat. I live close to a mission. Being on this board, I look and I think, “I wonder if there are veterans there?” Can you talk a bit about the complications of those circumstances and how they end up in that homeless situation? How do you identify them? From what I understand, we don't even know how many are out there.

It would be great to have a response from either or both of you.

[Brad White]

We don't know how many homeless veterans are out there. Our experience through the work we've done, principally here in Ontario, is these are individuals from close to the Afghanistan era—from Bosnia, Yugoslavia, or Rwanda—who through operational stress injuries have now found themselves on the streets.

They don't identify well as veterans. You can go into a shelter and ask, “Are you a veteran?”, and they won't say yes. What we ask is, “Have you worn the uniform?” A whole bunch of hands will come up, and we start the engagement process from there.

Ontario Command started years ago the Leave the Streets Behind program, which we've made into a national program. The principal centre right now is out of Toronto, but we're here, starting in Ottawa as well. They've helped over 1,000 veterans get off the streets. They have some housing units they now use to put veterans into. We started this program across the country.

Out in B.C., there's Cockrell House. It does a lot of good work with homeless veterans or near-homeless veterans. Those are the people we're trying to reach before they get on the streets and go into that deep dive.

As Ray mentioned, sometimes these people don't want to be helped. Sometimes they want to be unknown. They want to be behind the scenes. They want to be in the shadows. They're not ready to come forward to be helped. We've had veterans tell us they won't identify because they don't want their families to know where they are. It's a big issue out there.

We haven't seen Afghanistan veterans on the streets yet. Most of them are people suffering OSIs from the pre-Afghanistan era, but it's not finished yet.

[Brian McKenna]

I'll follow up on that.

One of the issues we have with homelessness, first of all, is that homeless people, whether they're veterans or not, can be transient in nature. They can be hard to find. They're at one shelter one day, and they're out on the road the next.

That's where the current square peg in a round hole concept is difficult to deal with through VAC. For any benefit I want to access at VAC, first of all I need a “K“ number for the individual. I need a case manager, there will be a form to fill out, and there'll be an adjudicator who has to say yes or no. After days or weeks or sometimes months have gone by, try finding that person.

I have helped homeless vets. We do have a couple out in Surrey from the Afghan conflict, and three I've dealt with myself. It can be very hard to find them.

The other thing is that before they were in Veterans Affairs, they were in a department that made them adept at handling adverse situations. It does make sense that people who can survive in the desert and the Arctic and hostile environments are quite good at finding a way to survive out on the streets. When you look at the Vancouver situation, due to our decent climate out here, often they wind up migrating out here just because of the survivability.

The homeless situation in Vancouver is big in society as a whole, and it's certainly strong in the veterans' community, even though we don't have the mega-bases of Edmonton and Gagetown out here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

You have one minute.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I am going to ask my question very quickly.

Mr. White, the Royal Canadian Legion is the biggest veterans' organization, recognized by an act of Parliament. Over the past 20 years, and particularly in the last five, we have seen the creation of many other groups who want to offer assistance or services to veterans.

Do you think that is a positive thing? It certainly is in some respects, but does it not dilute the strength of the veterans' movement?

[Brad White]

The plethora of veterans organizations is not new. The Legion was born out of 15 or 16 organizations that came together in 1925-1926. Through the course of time there have been many veterans organizations formed for each particular war. There's the Gulf War Veterans Association of Canada and the Afghanistan Veterans Association. There are many veterans associations. It's how we talk together that makes the difference. It's how we consult, how we understand our positions, and how we treat each other that make the big difference, because if we can go forward with some sort of an agreement on what advocacy should be directed towards the government to look after veterans, then that's where we want to be.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Great. Thank you.

You have the last three minutes, Ms. Moore.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

The process to release military personnel for medical reasons is quite complicated, and I could give certain examples.

When you are in a certain psychological state, it may be tempting to simply ask for a voluntary release from the armed forces in order to be able leave quickly, rather than having to go through the medical release process.

What are the repercussions at Veterans Affairs when someone obtains a voluntary release rather than a medical release?

Does the fact that someone who asked for a voluntary release may not be able to serve after a review of his medical file have an impact?

[Brad White]

I'll use some of the experiences that I know about.

There were many veterans who left the Canadian Armed Forces prior to Afghanistan because they were suffering, and they left voluntarily because they didn't know what they had. OSI was not accepted; OSI was not in the forefront, so they left the military not knowing exactly what they were suffering from. Some did and some didn't. We had a lot of people who left the military voluntarily because they just didn't know what was going on anymore, and they couldn't continue to meet the physical requirements of being in the military.

[Brian McKenna]

In answer to the the lady's question, I would second what Mr. White just said. Being released by the military is not the same as moving on. Someone else has decided that you're leaving, not necessarily yourself, and there's a certain feeling of being robbed of not necessarily dignity, but certainly your identity, as you're walking out the door.

As well, you know that you're walking out the door while at the same time your employment capability has been limited, so it's a very scary time. It's a difficult time to be forced to make decisions. It's a very difficult time to do that while at the same time being told your pay is going to go down.

Again, we just mentioned that earlier. I want you to think back to the earlier conversations. Is this the right time to be cutting someone's pay by 10%? We're now hitting them with the fact that they need to go find a job with limited capability while we just stripped them of how they characterize themselves, how they identify themselves to people. It's an exceptionally tough time when someone else has decided that your career has changed.

[Jim Scott]

I would add one thing here too, please. We have to talk about the reservists, the young men and women who were in university who signed up to go as volunteers over to Afghanistan and were injured. They may not have injuries that would relieve them of their ability to go to the reserve unit and parade once a week, but they do have injuries that will prevent them from going forward in the private sector and they really have no benefits.

Around the pool table at our house, there were a number of young men. The ones who were not injured are off into the RCMP. The ones who are injured are just hanging around. They are still parading at the reserve unit, but they really haven't found anybody who wants to take them on, and their compensation can be anywhere between 5% to 20%. They aren't in a program and they're not eligible for training because they haven't been released from the reserves, but their ability to earn an income in the private sector has been diminished.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

We've run out of time.

On behalf of the committee I would like to thank both—