Veterans Affairs Committee on April 21st, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Ms. Romanado, go ahead.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you so much.

I'd like to thank both the Royal Canadian Legion and Equitas for being here. Mr. McKenna, I'd like to thank you for your service to our country. Mr. Scott, please convey that to your son as well.

I am a mother of two sons currently serving in the Canadian Armed Forces. Like you, I understand what it means to be a family member of someone serving and the concern about what services will be available to them when they come back and have finished their tour.

We've talked a lot today. We've heard about a lot of the programs and the problems with programs. We've heard about the delivery of those programs and services, and service delivery is pretty much the focus of this committee's mandate for this specific study.

There seems to be a duplication of services and/or services being provided because there appears to be a gap in what VAC is doing. For instance, I know the Royal Canadian Legion often steps in to intervene and provide support in terms of navigating the system and making sure veterans are aware of what they're entitled to, how they can get it, and so on and so forth. We've heard a little bit about data integrity and data sharing.

I'd like to get your opinion. From the time a Canadian Armed Forces active member is willingly considering leaving the service or is asked to leave or has to leave because of physical or mental injury, where do you think the onus is? Is the onus to intervene on DND or on VAC? We seem to see that the gap is from the time they're leaving to the time they get service, but we don't know who's on second. Whose responsibility do you feel it should be?

[Brad White]

I actually believe it's a joint responsibility. As the individual transitions out of the military, the military has a large role to play.

It's like the American system. I'll go back to what the American system is. It's cradle to grave. Who does cradle to grave, now that we have a hand-off between DND over to VAC?

The issue is making sure that individual and his or her family make that jump well across that gap. Yes, there are a lot of gaps in there that appear because sometimes it's not a thorough handover. It needs to be a thorough handover, and it would even be better if it was the same case manager going from DND straight over to VAC. Why can't we do that?

Part of the mandate letters is about simplifying the process of transition. There have been all sorts of studies on the transition process. Both the OVOs have done a study. There was another study commissioned by VAC last year. It was done. We've never seen the studies at all. I'm sure that whole process is already outlined in those studies that have been done already. All we need to do is close the gap.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Mr. McKenna and Mr. Scott.

[Brian McKenna]

In answer to your question, madam, when a soldier comes forward and they're dealing with an injury and it's not known which stream they're in—that is, whether they're going to be retained or going to be released—they're often maintained into a JPSU, joint personnel support unit. I'm sure you've heard of that. At that time, as I said, it has not been decided. We might be returning them to service, altering service, or releasing.

The one thing that is a fact in the Canadian Forces is that when you are going to be medically released and the government has decided that for you, there is a minimum of a six-month notice period they give you. The military loves clean lines, so let's give them one. That is the point, right there, where we should be engaging. There's no more discussion as to what the future holds for this person, and there is at that point a minimum of six more months of service before they are shown the door. That would be an appropriate time to engage.

One of the problems you encounter, as I'm sure you're aware through government, is that when you have two or three agencies that ought to be helping, often none of them is the quarterback and actually grabs the file and runs, and that often creates a lot of the problems. There's no maliciousness here out of DND, or VAC for that matter, but there is a lack of control. Who is actually stickhandling this file?

That would be the perfect point at which to actually instigate that engagement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

You have a minute and a half.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

I have another question with respect to reaching our younger vets. I was happy to hear from the Royal Canadian Legion that 90% of their members are in fact post-Korean war. When I go the Legion, I don't normally see a lot of younger vets, so I'm happy to hear that number.

Mr. McKenna, you mentioned the use of technology. Is there a way that we can be leveraging technology to ensure our support of the younger vets? I know that on social media there are tons of grassroots groups of people sharing, talking together, looking for help, and so on. I'd like you both to elaborate. Is there something we can be doing in order to leverage this technology to make sure our vets are getting the support and information they need? Also, are there any recommendations you may have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Unfortunately, it will have to be very short answers on both.

We'll start with the Legion.

[Brad White]

Simply, communications have been a big issue for years. It needs to be fixed. I'm now on Twitter. I've never done that in my life. Every day at lunch I send out a tweet about what the Legion is doing for veterans. I get a lot of response that way.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

I'm not sure if Mr. Scott or Mr. McKenna wants to answer that.

[Brian McKenna]

One of the things that would be helpful, and not just from government but from our more traditional veterans' groups that are out there, is that we have to see that not just the technology has changed but that the culture has changed with it.

Another thing is we have a lot of veterans who are attempting, through things like SISIP, to re-educate themselves, and the days of education happening only in a university are gone. For Veterans Affairs and our traditional groups out there, if they could set up Internet cafés or some such idea, a place a person could go where there would be Wi-Fi they could connect to and photocopiers and fax machines they could use, it would help.

First of all, this is part of the mandate letter. You may have to read into the mandate letter a little, but it is part of it, and it could also help the traditional groups increase the number of people coming through the door.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you. Next is Mr. Fraser.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, all four gentlemen, for joining us today and making excellent presentations. Thank you all so very much for all of your service to our country, and for the great work that all of you do in advocating for veterans and the brave men and women in the Canadian Forces.

I have 14 Legion branches in my riding of West Nova, and I know them and the good work that they do quite well. They support veterans every day, often in places like my riding, which is rural. I'm sure some of my colleagues here today will share my point of view that they fill a role of being a centre for camaraderie, as you mentioned in your presentation; but also as a community centre, a meeting place, a place of great value and importance in the community itself.

I appreciate very much your comments on the communications and accessibility. I'm wondering if you can expand on the differences you see between Royal Canadian Legions in urban areas versus rural areas, and if there's anything more that can be done in order to have outreach in the rural areas to support the veterans in those communities.

[Brad White]

I will call Legion branches the cornerstones of their communities, particularly in the smaller outside rural communities, if you want to use those terms.

Legion branches were also the initial PTSD treatment centres, where individuals went and looked after each other. They took their buddies. My grandfather took his regimental adjutant into the Legion. The regimental adjutant drank two 40-pounders a day to get rid of his PTSD. It wasn't fun, but that's how they protected themselves. They took their comrades into the branches. They looked after them until they were ready to come back out into the real world, and that's what they did. They looked after each other.

Branches across the country are all different. There's no cookie cutter that says you have the same thing all across the country, nor should there be, because every community is different.

With branches in rural communities, we're having a real issue. A lot of them are closing down because, frankly, a lot of people are moving out of the rural communities into the urban centres. Where are the population bases? This is a natural phenomenon as we move on.

We see it in Saskatchewan. We see it in all areas of the Prairies. This is happening even in larger centres. You say you have 14 branches within your area; we're suggesting to these branches that maybe they should all come together and amalgamate a few of them and make them bigger and stronger.

Most of those branches are in 40- to 50- or maybe 60-year-old buildings. The infrastructure is a killer. It's costing them a lot of money to keep old buildings running. Why not come together, amalgamate a few of the branches, put all the members together, so you have.... In their heyday, the branches used to have 1,000-plus members in a branch. You might have 200 people now who are trying to support what 1,000 used to do. It's a very difficult thing to do.

What we're recommending is that they start thinking about this idea of amalgamation, coming together with bigger branches to provide more service to the community.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you very much.

Mr. McKenna.

[Brian McKenna]

You brought up a very interesting point about the urban and rural divide. I'll let the Legion have their comments on that. I do agree with them, by the way.

In terms of service delivery, you just brought up a very important point, which I'd like to talk about for 10 or 20 seconds here.

I have the backdrop of beautiful Vancouver over my shoulder here, and so when I had to go to access care, I was able to. I'm probably within blocks of a psychiatrist right now. That's not the case for the 2nd Battalion, PPCLI, based out of Shilo, and that's something your committee should be very aware of.

Through the process of getting someone better, there's a point where we turn around and say, “Okay, now we punt it over to the private sector for the care that's out there.” In Vancouver I had the pick of the litter. I could get rid of doctors I didn't want. In Shilo, you're lining up for months to see the only doctor who may be there, and I think your committee needs to be aware of that.

Thank you, sir.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. McKenna, for that point.

I appreciate very much, Mr. White, your point on the Legions. In my riding, and I'm sure there are similar examples across the country, the Wedgeport Legion has taken in another Legion that closed down, the Carleton Legion, and they've amalgamated forces and invited members from other areas in. That one is doing quite well. It is struggling, of course, with the challenges, but they do great work in the community.

On the other end of the spectrum, the Kingston Legion in Kingston, Nova Scotia, has a very large membership because of the base, 14 Wing Greenwood, and the number of veterans living there. There are differences, of course, in the various areas, and I appreciate your comments on that.

For the Royal Canadian Legion, I wonder if you can comment on any partnerships that the Royal Canadian Legion has with organizations in the communities themselves in smaller areas where that partnership will allow for service provisions and outreach in the community.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

We're down to about 50 seconds on that one.

[Brad White]

I'm not good at 50 seconds. I never have been. Sorry.

We are the cornerstone. In the communities, every branch will partner with people to support the community. What we've offered, particularly when we're reaching people up in the north where there are no service delivery points for VAC, is to have access to Legion branches, so if you want to send a case manager up north on a rotational basis, we're offering to set that up through the Legion branch system. We can do that in southern Canada as well. If we set it up there, you have a place to go, a place to meet, and a place to communicate.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

There was a question about budget 2016. There's a commitment in there to reduce the caseworker ratio from 40:1 to 25:1 and also to reopen the veterans offices that were closed under the former government. Those nine would be reopened, and, in fact, a new one in Surrey, B.C., would be added.

Can I have your comment on that, please?

[Brad White]

As long as the offices are open when there's a need, we don't really have an issue with that. Opening offices across the country is essential. Getting the caseload down for case managers is absolutely essential. I now have to hire more service officers because we have a bigger caseload.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Mr. Clarke.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Gentlemen, thank you for being here with us today. We appreciate it very much.

My first question will be addressed to the representatives of the Royal Canadian Legion and to those of the Equitas group.

I think we can agree that there is a big issue with regard to information-sharing between the Department of National Defence and Veterans Affairs. It is very unfortunate for veterans who must face this difficulty alone when they have to prove that their physical or mental injuries are due to their military service.

I have often asked this question in committee and I would like to put it to you as well. I was told on several occasions that in the United States the veteran's burden of proof, that is to say having to prove that the injuries are service-related, rests with the department responsible for veterans. And so there, it is the department of veterans affairs that has to determine whether the veteran's injuries are service-related or not. If we functioned like that in Canada as well, am I correct in thinking that the veteran would not have to work to transmit the information, but the department, with all the means at its disposal, would work to go and get that information?

I yield the floor to you.

[Ray McInnis]

In Canada, Canadian Forces doctors will diagnose the injury; they won't link it to service. That's up to Veterans Affairs.

First, on the transfer of the file, we have no problem as service officers in getting that file very quickly. Once the member signs, that's an immediate process. I shouldn't say immediate; sometimes it takes a month, but it's all electronic. Then, of course, it's a matter of linking that injury to service, but the Canadian Armed Forces doctor will not link the injury to service.

Changes in the past year have related only to reassessment, so once entitlement from the initial assessment is established by Veterans Affairs and a Veterans Affairs doctor, then if the veteran or still-serving member who has a disability claim goes back for reassessment purposes only, Veterans Affairs will send the medical questionnaires to the Canadian Forces doctor and they could be reassessed by a Canadian Forces doctor, but the doctor will not make that initial link to service.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Is that a problem?