Veterans Affairs Committee on March 22nd, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Mr. Kitchen, you have two and a half minutes.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you all for being here, and I appreciate your comments.

Ms. Elms, you hit on things that I've believed all along, and I come from a military family. Civilians do not understand the military. They don't have a clue. They don't see it; they don't understand it. They try to equate everything they do from a civilian perspective with a military aspect, and they're two different scenarios. That's not only medical; it's every aspect of life.

Your statement about the soul of a soldier is so true. The soldier, whoever it is, filters that down to the family, and it grows in the family. It's in me today, and it will always be there. My wife doesn't understand when I talk about things, because she never lived that life.

I believe VAC is part of the problem, because at VAC, we have civilians making decisions. They do not understand the soul of a soldier.

[Sherri Elms]

I will tell you. When I stepped from having a designated assistant with DND—and I stepped out of that probably a month after Brad died—and into Veterans Affairs, I felt lost. It wasn't the same. I had somebody at OSIS as a contact. As much as the military was embarrassed, shocked, or gobsmacked by Brad's suicide, I felt cared for. I had been a royal by extension for over 30 years, and then, all of a sudden, I wasn't.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

I realize I have very little time here, but I would ask all of you to put down on paper and present to this committee any ideas on how you see where that would be of value, where we could use that. I believe that's a big stepping stone to make them understand that part.

Quickly, Aaron, I have a question for you. I know we talked a bit about suicide. I'm just wondering if you could comment to us a bit on the suicide prevention strategy that is being presented.

[Aaron Bedard]

Well, way back in 2013, I'm the one who exposed the five suicides within the space of a week in the month of November. We've been pushing very hard to get suicide covered. It's one of the only countries in the world that's not tracking suicides within its veteran community. It's wrong. It's something that they wanted kept hidden because the JPSUs were underfunded and people were being fast-tracked out of the Canadian Armed Forces because the JPSUs were overflowing. It's a nice way to get rid of somebody, and then privacy law keeps you from ever having to talk about them again.

We did get this joint suicide strategy, but it only goes up to 2012 because they went to StatsCan instead of just simply looking internally, which they could have done in seconds through the union head, C.J. Gannon. I've already had it all worked out, but they're avoiding it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

We'll go to Mr. Johns for one minute.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you.

I think we can all agree that we wish we had more than an hour with the four of you.

Aaron, maybe you can comment about the way that military health records could be better transferred for a veteran who moves between provinces.

Also, just on that, can you also talk about better digitalized records and delivering services to rural veterans. I know it's only in a minute.

[Aaron Bedard]

I know you've spoken a few times about how hard it would be on a national level with a population of 38 million, but with us, it's 600,000, and of the people who are in the severe category, people who have been hit or blown up overseas, you're talking about a couple of tens of thousands.

If you're going to start anywhere within our society, in light of the fact that we just went through a war for the first time in 50 years, it should be square one. I've been pushing for six years to have dog tags that have a microchip. Whatever place they're at, all the information will be put there, because when someone gets hit overseas and then they go to Landstuhl and then to another hospital here, the paperwork's not following. As a result, they're not then getting covered for benefits and are going through battles to try to prove it.

But it's all about money. Unfortunately, the Department of National Defence gets cut here, left and right all the time, and so they're embattled and are not looking at that.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Chair, on the second question, can he submit to the committee how we can reach rural veterans?

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

I was going to suggest that.

I apologize that we are out of time.

If there are any questions that you want to elaborate on or you have any other suggestions on, perhaps you could submit them to the clerk; or the clerk will get a hold of you. I'll have her send you an email and if you could send them, we'd all get them and they would go on record.

On behalf of the committee, I would like to thank all of you for coming today, for your testimony, and all you've done to help champion the cause to make life better for the men and women who have served, and continually serve.

I'll move a motion to recess for about five minutes, and then we'll come back in the second half.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

We're going to start the next portion of our meeting.

In the second panel, we're pleased to welcome Glen Kirkland by video conference from Manitoba, and from Armed Forces Pensioners', Lieutenant-Colonel (Retired) Charles McCabe, Major (Retired) Michael Davie, and Keith McAllister.

Each group will have a five-minute opening statement. We will start with Mr. Kirkland.

Mr. Kirkland, if you're ready to go, we'll start with your five minutes. Welcome aboard.

[Glen Kirkland, As an Individual]

I was asked just recently to speak for five minutes about the transition from military to civilian life. I had a perfect speech presented and ready to go, and last night I kept thinking about the first time I was sent to testify in Parliament as a still-serving member. It really speaks volumes about how members are treated.

When I was sent to Ottawa, I was immediately called by a warrant officer at JPSU and told that if I didn't return to Manitoba, I was going to be dishonourably discharged. This was shortly after being wounded in Afghanistan by being hit with a rocket and having all of my other members killed. I caught fire and was peppered with shrapnel, and I had massive brain injuries. My pancreas shut down, so I'm on between eight and 14 injections every day.

It's funny. I couldn't sleep last night, and it wasn't because of thoughts of the horrors of war. It was how I was treated while transitioning as a serving member to civilian life. You're not treated as a human being yet, and I believe the system is set up such that the member is almost doomed to fail.

I've always been told that I am a success story of someone who's transitioned from the military. I have a successful business in real estate here in Manitoba, and I hire veterans. I just went over the numbers recently, and I've loaned veterans now over $90,000 within the last two years, because they are not doing well.

The transition is not set up for guys to succeed. Once you are left, you are left alone. These guys right now.... I have one member for whom I just cut a cheque for $27,000. He told me that if he couldn't get his finances in order, he was going to kill himself.

This is the kind of stress that's put on members and people who have come forward and advocated publicly. I know it's true for Aaron Bedard and Mark Campbell, especially. These guys have a ton of pressure on them that shouldn't be on people in our position. There should be a transitional position for this.

Guys and girls getting out of the military are left alone. That's what I really want to reiterate here. The medical system doesn't transfer over to civilian life. There's so much wasted time and headache. I'm sure you've heard it before, but people are drowning in paperwork. It's just a complete “soup sandwich”, if I could use a military term. It truly speaks volumes to the way our veterans are being treated in transition.

That's really what I wanted to say, and I wanted to leave myself open to have some time for questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Mr. McCabe.

[Charles McCabe, Representative, Armed Forces Pensioners'/Annuitants’ Association of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, my organization has been around for about 50 years. Our focus originally was on service pension issues, things like employment insurance and health and dental care insurance, but lately we've gotten into some of the things we're talking about here today, such as the Agent Orange disability. Those wounded years ago are now over 60 and into their survivor benefit increases, which the governing party promised us prior to the last election, but since then we haven't heard a word from any of them.

Before addressing the questions you posed, I would like to address one service pension issue, and that has to do with transition. We have legislation that facilitates the transfer of Mounties and military veterans to the public service, but there have been some changes to the public service regulations that create an uneven playing field for soldiers. I would like to turn it over to Michael Davie for a moment so he can explain it. He has first-hand knowledge of this problem. We would ask your support for a bill that's currently before Parliament to solve this particular problem. It's an easy one.

Michael.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, my organization has been around for about 50 years. Our focus originally was on service pension issues, things like employment insurance and health and dental care insurance, but lately we've gotten into some of the things we're talking about here today, such as the Agent Orange disability. Those wounded years ago are now over 60 and into their survivor benefit increases, which the governing party promised us prior to the last election, but since then we haven't heard a word from any of them.

Before addressing the questions you posed, I would like to address one service pension issue, and that has to do with transition. We have legislation that facilitates the transfer of Mounties and military veterans to the public service, but there have been some changes to the public service regulations that create an uneven playing field for soldiers. I would like to turn it over to Michael Davie for a moment so he can explain it. He has first-hand knowledge of this problem. We would ask your support for a bill that's currently before Parliament to solve this particular problem. It's an easy one.

Michael.

[Michael Davie, Representative, Armed Forces Pensioners'/Annuitants’ Association of Canada]

Thanks for the opportunity to speak to you today.

I'm here to bring to the committee's attention an issue that affects veterans who have transitioned to a second career in the public service; that includes me. We've also submitted a written brief to the committee with detailed background information on this issue. It's still in translation, but you should get it soon.

In 2013, the public service pension plan was modified so that new employees would be required to wait an additional five years before retiring with a full pension, while existing employees were grandfathered under the old rules. However, at the time of this change, no allowance was made to similarly grandfather veterans who transfer military or RCMP service to the plan as part of their transition. As a result, these veterans will be forced to wait five years longer to retire than their peers in the public service with the same period of service. Currently there are more than 100 veterans in this situation, including me, and this total could grow to as many as 500 in the years ahead.

When I transitioned from the army to the public service in 2014, I transferred my 15 years of pensionable military service to the public service pension plan. However under the current rules, I'm considered to be a new employee and am therefore faced with a later retirement age. In my case this will be at age 60, after more than 42 years of service. However, if I were to be grandfathered under the old rules, I would instead be able to retire at age 55 after 37 years of service. If you're trying to do the math, yes, I started when I was 17.

Unlike many of the issues the committee has heard about as part of this study, this one is completely and exclusively within the authority of Parliament to solve. All that is required is a simple amendment to the Public Service Superannuation Act, which is already before the House of Commons in the form of a private member's bill, Bill, introduced by MP Alupa Clarke. I believe this is a simple issue of fairness for veterans and one that can be easily rectified.

My hope is that the committee will include as part of its report a recommendation that the House of Commons pass Bill C-357 to address this issue or that the Government of Canada incorporate the required amendment into appropriate legislation.

Thank you for undertaking this important study. I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Mr. McAllister.

[Keith McAllister, Representative, Armed Forces Pensioners'/Annuitants’ Association of Canada]

Good day. Thank you.

[Charles McCabe]

If I could introduce Keith, he is a veteran of two tours in Bosnia and a tour in Afghanistan. He was medically released two years ago, so he's well aware of the problems and has personal experience with the discussions that went on before we sat down, and are going on across the country. I've asked Keith to highlight some of the many questions you've asked.

Keith.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you for your service, Mr. McAllister, and thank you for being here today. We'll start with you for five minutes.

[Keith McAllister]

Thank you to you for letting me be here today.

Today I was going to really hammer on the questions that you provided us to give the answers for, but I believe for most of those questions we already have the answers.

I'm going to elaborate on three major ones that really touch base, and I have one question for you that each and every one of you can think about. What are you willing to do to fix the issues within the system?

The first is the JPSU. There are lots of problems with the JPSU. It's been an ongoing issue for the last 10 years. You have heard from one person, and it will bring to recognition retired sergeant-major Barry Westholm. He has sent in some paperwork for you guys to see. He was a company sergeant-major at the JPSU. That man knows the rights, what worked, what failed, and everything else in that system. He is a SME—a subject matter expert—on fixing the JPSU issue.

Also, we heard from Ms. Cassandra Desmond, and she wants to know the actual events and how the system failed her brother. Well, I know what failed her brother: its the medical system. Right now, a retired member like me, when we retire from CAF, we lose our doctor from the army and now we're in a public health care system that is overloaded and has a lack of experience and a lack of training to deal with OSI, operational stress injuries, and to deal with PTSD.

I know that, because in the past year I sat through two military funerals of two young soldiers who took their own lives. It was brought up before that our system for our suicides is not being tracked. These suicides weren't even published anywhere in the media. I'll leave it at that.

Also, I will bring up something now with the transition from military to civilian life. When I retired on April 1, 2016, I was under the old system. It was very seamless and very easy for me to do. Thirty days prior to my release, my last working day, I was given a release clerk, a clerk within the CF army. They made my appointments, helped me put my pension package together, and ensured that if I had any questions, they were there to answer.

Now I'll talk briefly about two of my friends. One friend now is retiring in the next couple of days. I asked my friend, Jim, how his release was going from the CF. Well, he said, “not as good as yours went”. He went to the release section 30 days before his release date. They gave him a list of web pages, hyperlinks, and said this was for him to do by himself; and by the way, they gave him his pension package. In his frustration, he's realized that some of these hyperlinks and web pages are no longer valid or they do not work. He has not done his complete release yet, and he's releasing in approximately four to five days from now.

Now I'm going to talk briefly about my other friend, Bruno. He's retiring after 42 years of service in the Canadian Armed Forces. He's at the mandatory age of retirement, CR-60. That means he cannot go any further in his military career. Now, I've learned from him this year that the release process is changing once again on April 1. He's not able yet to do any of his release process, and I should note that his end of contract is around April 17. On April 1, he will go to the release section and has no idea what the new procedures are going to be, and he has about 17 days to complete it before the end of his contract.

I will ask the question again and I'm going to change it for you. What do you want to do about the problems within those three systems right now? I know that at my level and where I sit with the Veterans UN-NATO Canada support group—I'm the president of the Upper Ottawa Valley—I have resources. There are enough subject matter experts whom I know, and maybe in this room as well, who can create a working group and really concentrate on solving these issues and getting them done so there are no more suicides and that the best help in everything is available for veterans.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

We're going to start with five-minute rounds, beginning with Mr. McColeman.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, each one of you, for being here and sharing your views.

I'd like to ask more about the private member's bill that's been put forward to solve this issue and maybe just provide a bit more context to Mr. Clarke 's bill.

First of all, do you believe the private member's bill solves the problem you're talking about with the discrepancy in the retirement situation?

[Charles McCabe]

It has the potential to do it. I took it to my own Member of Parliament, Karen McCrimmon, who said there's got to be an easier way and that she'd talk to the President of the Treasury Board, and she did. Michael just got a letter back from Treasury Board that shows they have no idea what he's talking about—none whatsoever.

It has the potential to do it. I took it to my own Member of Parliament, Karen McCrimmon, who said there's got to be an easier way and that she'd talk to the President of the Treasury Board, and she did. Michael just got a letter back from Treasury Board that shows they have no idea what he's talking about—none whatsoever.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Right. That was the context I want to put around it, because I've been following this closely. As you know, gentlemen, we met in the joint media conference about Mr. Clarke's bill—

[Charles McCabe]

A couple of months ago.