Evidence of meeting #87 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was communities.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Robert Thibeau  President, Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones
J.J.M.J. Paul  Chief of Staff, Canadian Forces Intelligence Command, Department of National Defence
Warrant Officer Grant Greyeyes  Aboriginal Advisor to Commander, Canadian Army, Department of National Defence
Officer Moogly Tetrault-Hamel  Indigenous Advisor to the Chaplain General, Department of National Defence
T.E.C. Mackay  Director, Army Reserve, Department of National Defence

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

I have some housekeeping items here.

The meeting on main estimates with the minister has been postponed until June 7, unfortunately.

Our report on barriers to transitions will be tabled on May 23.

This is the second meeting on the study of needs and issues specific to indigenous veterans and the witnesses are the same ones who were supposed to be here on May 10. Thank you for your patience and availability, and thank you for re-booking. It's a special time with the Canadian Armed Forces Indigenous Awareness Week celebrations.

In the first panel we'd like to welcome Robert Thibeau, President, Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones, a nationally incorporated organization that represents the interests of Canadian aboriginal veterans and serving members who are of aboriginal descent. Mr. Thibeau will also take time to brief us for our trip, which we will do from May 27 to June 1.

We also have Robert Bertrand. He's the National Chief, and is here for moral support. He's a former MP. Thank you for coming today.

Welcome, both of you.

Mr. Thibeau, we'll start with your opening statement. You have 10 minutes.

11:05 a.m.

Robert Thibeau President, Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, good morning. I wish to acknowledge that today we meet on Algonquin territory, land that has never been ceded or surrendered. I once again thank the Algonquin Nation for the privilege to meet here and speak specifically regarding our indigenous warrior veterans, while acknowledging all of our veterans, as well as members of the armed forces and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

Let me begin by offering sincere thanks to your committee for the announcement that you will be undertaking visits to some of our indigenous communities across a big part of Canada to gain knowledge and information regarding our distinguished indigenous veterans. This marks the first time that the Government of Canada has decided to seek first-hand information from our veterans, and we hope this will lead to a stronger understanding of the many issues faced by our veterans and in our communities.

AVA was hoping that the visits would have included more communities in all reaches of Canada—north, south, east, and west—but I also acknowledge this as being a very good starting point. I was just recently informed that later on this year you are undertaking plans to visit the north of Canada, which I think will be one of your biggest challenges. Again, meegwetch.

As president of the Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones, I once again appear here to represent the indigenous veterans from my organization and indigenous veterans from the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples and the Assembly of First Nations through a memo of understanding. This presentation is one that I feel has great significance, as it deals directly with indigenous veterans.

History reveals that as of the War of 1812, which was long before Canada became its own country, indigenous support was essential to the ultimate success of Canada achieving nationhood. Had the outcome of that particular conflict favoured the United States, the geography of Canada would certainly be different. Given that there was indigenous support, why was there a disconnect between these allies and the rest of Canada?

After Confederation, the crown was intent on assimilating the natives of Canada into a more Eurocentric society and away from the spiritual and cultural norms and practices. Even when treaties were enacted, these actions continued. Treaties, by definition, are agreements between sovereign nations. What happened? Reserves were created, with government controls, through the development of the Indian Act. Residential schools were created to assimilate our children and youth, to outlaw native spirituality, and to replace it with Christian ideals. Included in this was the banning of all cultural practices by our peoples.

How does this actually have anything to do with our veterans? At the start of both world wars and the Korean War, indigenous warriors enrolled to fight for the crown. The number of indigenous people who enrolled and fought represented the highest percentage of any Canadian demographic. The reason for enrolment may have been as simple as getting three meals a day, a pair of boots, or a bed to sleep in. I tend to think the main reason was to show that indigenous people were willing to once again prove their steadfastness to Canada, while at the same time hoping that by serving, things would change and become better back home. In other words, it meant my service in exchange for the country recognizing my rights and respecting me as an equal.

I was honoured to be present at both the Italian campaign's and the Dieppe raid's 75th commemorations. At these, I spoke and listened to veterans who knew of indigenous warriors in their own units, some of whom are buried in these foreign lands, and some who returned after the fighting was over. At Dieppe, during a sunrise ceremony, I was witness to the emotional atmosphere of this terrible raid and the senseless loss of life suffered on that beach. On that beach, let it be known that there was a high number of first nations and Métis veterans, especially from the South Saskatchewan Regiment. Vast numbers were killed, and others were interned in POW camps until the end of the war.

Let's refer back to my earlier comments regarding residential schools. What about indigenous soldiers fighting overseas? How about the soldier fighting in Italy, while back at home the residential school director shows up with the police at his place and takes his five-year-old son away from his wife and takes that little boy to residential school? Think about you and your own children. What would you do? Where would you turn? In the case of that young woman, there was nowhere to turn; it was the law.

Also, on return after both wars, non-indigenous veterans were offered land grants, cut-rate loans, and other benefits, not to mention whatever Veterans Affairs had at that time for benefits. The Government of Canada used this time as another chance to disenfranchise returning indigenous veterans.

Also of note, Indian Affairs considered indigenous veterans as falling under their jurisdiction and not Veterans Affairs Canada's, with little or no benefits. I can only say that if you look, you will see that our warriors were equal in battle but discriminated against at home. This attitude has continued for many years, and even today with the recent media coverage, it still exists. In my notes, you'll see some of the most recent things that I've mentioned.

It is not the intention of our indigenous veterans to be classed alone; rather, we take pride in service to Canada and service with all Canadian veterans. With them, we stand united.

On previous appearances here at this committee, I advocated for our rural and isolated communities regarding veterans and establishing sound mechanisms for communicating with them with respect to those benefits and entitlements that they should have. The technology enjoyed by mainstream Canadians is not necessarily the norm in remote communities. Since my last appearance here over a year ago, there has been little traction towards addressing the issue of our veterans living in remote areas.

I take note that you will be looking for answers as to what the communities offer in a transition process. You must understand that in the case of first nations, the health care budgets on reserves are limited, and they cannot be expected to add care for our veterans without a direct and positive influence by the Government of Canada and in particular by Veterans Affairs. I can also say that the same issues exist in smaller communities where other indigenous veterans reside. You'll be visiting one of those on your trip.

Are the services that are being offered actually reaching out to remote communities? That is a question that is not easily answered. I have a great deal of concern regarding some of the excellent programs instituted recently by Veterans Affairs Canada, such as the education benefit and caregiver's entitlement. My concern is that communicating those benefits to remote areas or regions and offering up these incentives may very well not be reaching out far enough.

OSISS is an outstanding organization that has done excellent work. Does it, however, have the ability to do outreach to our indigenous veterans who are suffering from mental issues? Is there any way to provide outreach mental health services to rural communities too far away to access somebody in person, including the OSISS organization? What mechanisms can be instituted by Veterans Affairs Canada, in conjunction with the health care community professionals, specifically for veterans?

In other words, assuring care for entitled veterans should not become a financial burden on any community from the money received for the health of the community. Veterans Affairs must establish the same and equal support as for mainstream veterans, including any costs associated with that support.

I noted in your travel agenda that you wanted to know specific issues regarding veterans from all three of the indigenous groups in Canada.

The issue for some first nations veterans is that their military service may not have been with Canada but rather with the U.S. military, in other words, with an allied force. Although I understand and appreciate that the U.S. DVA holds responsibility for their benefits, there appears to be a disconnect concerning the way these veterans can access the benefits they are entitled to through the DVA hospital system.

I was informed four years ago by Chief Percy Joe from the Shackan Indian Band, a remote reserve near Merritt, B.C., that veterans had to pay out of their pockets the expenses to get from their community to the border; then they would be covered. I asked at that time whether there was a possibility of an agreement between DVA and VAC to address and resolve the issue of travel, in other words, whether there was a way that Veterans Affairs could pay that travel and be reimbursed by DVA, that is, through cross-border talks.

Concerning Inuit veterans, including veterans of the Canadian rangers, travel to remote northern communities is not included on your initial agenda. I know that the next leg of your journey will include northern Inuit communities, and this will be extremely important, for as we know, in Canada the highest suicide rates are among our indigenous peoples, and this is more the case within Inuit communities. With the announcement by VAC and DND of a suicide prevention strategy, I am hopeful that this will also include interaction with indigenous social workers, with the intention of reducing the numbers of suicide deaths, be they of veterans or not.

Regarding RCMP veterans who are receiving benefits and entitlements from VAC, my nephew, a first nations status Indian from Oromocto First Nation, has stated that he has not had any problems with Veterans Affairs or anyone he has been in contact with in that department.

Once again, I offer these words: effective communication is the cornerstone to success, for if you can communicate your message to everyone and it is understood, then you have achieved the most important step in providing care to veterans.

Mr. Chairman, committee members, and fellow veterans, thank you, meegwetch, marsi, merci, qujannamiik, all my relations.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

We'll begin with six minutes for Mr. McColeman.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Chair, first of all, I want to welcome you back to the chair. It's great to see you here, Neil, and in good health. We certainly missed you.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

If I may just make a comment, thanks for filling in for me. Both of you did a great job, I hear.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Well, it's great to have you back.

Thank you for your testimony, Mr. Thibeau. First of all, I'd like to understand a little bit more of the context of your group. How many people are part of it? Do you consider it an association? Is there a formal mechanism for membership of your organization? Can you give me a general executive summary overview of the Autochtones?

11:20 a.m.

President, Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones

Robert Thibeau

Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones forms its roots from the now-defunct National Aboriginal Veterans Association. There were two groups that started up; the carpet was yanked from under NAVA. At that time I had just been elected vice-president for NAVA, only to find that somebody had pulled a fast one and had taken it away from us. Instead of fighting this issue, we formed an organization with a French connection as well, Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones, as a national organization. The majority of the members from NAVA came with us. The other ones had either been disillusioned with what had taken place or went their own way.

We have a mission statement stating that we're looking after advocacy, remembrance, and community services. That's our job; that's our role. I have a director in each province in Canada. There's nothing in the territories as yet, but that's still being worked on. I have the ability to get that going, because of a few of our Métis people who have retired just recently.

We are a national organization. Our numbers are very close to 200. We sit and look after.... I'm on the mental health advisory group, I have somebody on the family committee with Veterans Affairs and one on policy.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Of the 200, what is the makeup? Is that actual veterans, or is it advocacy for the veterans?

11:20 a.m.

President, Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones

Robert Thibeau

No, in order to get into AVA you have to be a veteran, and because the RCMP have now fallen under the umbrella, we've included RCMP veterans as well, and they have to be indigenous.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Okay, excellent.

Are the indigenous veterans, in your group's estimation, generally satisfied with Veterans Affairs Canada at this point in time?

11:20 a.m.

President, Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones

Robert Thibeau

What I have made reference to is that I've sat on these boards for over four years. It's very frustrating. As I know you probably, sitting here and listening to some things, become frustrated with what you hear, I become frustrated, because I'm part of the 90% of veterans in Canada who are quite satisfied with what Veterans Affairs has done, the benefits that have come out. At almost 64 years of age, I can go back to university for four years with $80,000, because I fall under that umbrella, with the caregivers allowance and those things that have happened. Those are positive things.

I make sure that our veterans know of all of those changes that have come in, the positive things. They give me the negative things. They provide me the feedback, and I will address them in such a way.... I don't pick parties and will not pick parties, because I think that's wrong. I think this, as a committee, is a fair group, because you're all working together. As a military person I get very frustrated.

By the way, my wife is a 30-year veteran as well. She's not indigenous, but she's a 30-year veteran. She did a tour in Rwanda during the hospital deployment there. She worked at the Role 3 facility at Kandahar airfield during the height of all the casualties that Canada had and she has done extremely well. Is she being looked after? Whatever she needed from Veterans Affairs she got. No, she doesn't have PTSD. I don't know what's in Newfoundland blood.

I can tell you that on the indigenous side we listen to what the veterans have to say. We provide the information. That's the advocacy part of things. I want to take the information.... I will sit on various committees and offer up various things and will brief my directorship on some of the things we spoke about. For example, with the mental health group, when you talk about specific things within that group, agree or not agree, I give a highlight on it. Then I get feedback as well. We keep up to date; we keep working with—

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Do you ever meet as a group nationally? Do you ever have a national conference of some sort?

11:25 a.m.

President, Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones

Robert Thibeau

We have not had our national conference, because we have no funding, so my contact is through the Internet.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Thank you, Mr. Thibeau.

Mr. Eyolfson is next, for six minutes.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Doug Eyolfson Liberal Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

Thank you for coming, Mr. Thibeau.

You were talking about issues of outreach and about our needing to get better services out to people in isolated areas in the north and, for the services that are available to them, getting the information to them. Have you any suggestions for us as to how we can do that?

11:25 a.m.

President, Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones

Robert Thibeau

Initially when I started four years ago talking about the rangers, it was great news to me that the army had finally taken over the ranger program. That's a very unique program, and it should have been under the army because the rangers are doing army work. That gave them the ability to become and to be classed as reserve soldiers, therefore providing them with Veterans Affairs services, etc.

One of the things for communications—I worked a bit in the north visiting communities and teaching up there—is that there was already a connection up there with the military. The military travels the north quite extensively.

We have a suicide prevention program between DND and VAC. I've brought this up before. Is there a possibility for the senior NCOs or the NCOs who visit these communities to have a sit-down with the veterans of that community and talk about the benefits that Veterans Affairs has? In other words, can we design a package that you can take up north into each community? That's a start, but for that outreach, some of the communities there may not be.... There may be veterans in other communities. The army probably looks after only those communities where they have those rangers who come in, and there may be other communities out there that don't have the access.

I really get troubled when I start thinking about the Internet. I talked to a young Mohawk out there. When he was up in the north, if you got Internet, you were working on slow time, very slow time. That's if you have it. Some communities in the first nations, I believe, may not have the ability to have it, because they're so far into the remote area. If they do have it, it may be in only one location and there's a priority of use.

May 22nd, 2018 / 11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Doug Eyolfson Liberal Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB

All right. Thank you.

This goes outside Veterans Affairs, but it definitely affects veterans. Is there any program or initiative you know of in Defence so that when indigenous service members are transitioning, it basically takes into account that they're going to isolated areas and maybe gives them some instruction beforehand, as in the challenges they're going to have where they live and how they can contact them? Is there anything like that to help them so they're prepared before they go there?

11:30 a.m.

President, Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones

Robert Thibeau

That's a very good question to be brought up with DND, because to my knowledge there is nothing in that transition process. I'm not familiar with that. That transition period has, I think, just hit the ice now.

I know of one thing that happened in Afghanistan in terms of the ceremonies of our fallen who came back. I believe it was a young Mohawk woman from one of the reserves in Ontario who said that if she was to be killed overseas, she wanted to have her ceremony be the ceremony of her traditional people. That was marked down, and had this happened, it would have happened. I find DND very receptive to some of the ideas that we bring forward or that have been brought forward.

That stands to reason. I think if you talk to the army commander.... The army commander is the military's champion for indigenous peoples. The army has held that position for the last 10 or 15 years and they don't want to give it up because it's dear to their heart and it's part of... The majority of those people join the army. I think it's a very good question, because that forms another part of that transition.

The other thing I talked about on mental health is traditional healing. There are things that we do in our indigenous communities. I run culture camps for the military every summer, Black Bear and Raven, and for Bold Eagle I was the sergeant major for their camp in 2000 and...anyway, it was years ago.

That traditional healing aspect of things is something that I brought up and that I think is dear too. I'll give you an example: Debbie Eisan. If you've ever met Debbie Eisan from Halifax, ex-chief petty officer.... There was a problem with an individual on board ship. They had come to their wits' end and were ready to release him. They came to her, the adviser, and asked what they should do. She said to send him back to his community for two weeks and let the elders do their thing. They sent him back for two weeks of traditional therapy—the healing process—and he came back a changed individual. He stayed with the service and promoted himself through the service. There's a positive thing.

The big thing is to listen to some of the indigenous people who are in there and to veterans, elders, and all those other people. It makes a big difference.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis

Thank you.

Wayne, you have six minutes.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Wayne Stetski NDP Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Thank you very much for being here.

I particularly appreciated the picture you painted of the indigenous soldier being overseas while back home his son was being put in a residential school.

I had the opportunity to sit in on the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs at a time when they were looking to study a new subject. I raised a question and said that surely this subject had been studied before. It turned out that a Senate committee and a House of Commons committee had looked at the same issue. My suggestion was that maybe the committee should study the recommendations from those previous studies and see how many of them were actually implemented.

My question for you is, has this issue been looked at before? From your perspective, what were the outcomes from the previous studies, if there have been any?

11:35 a.m.

President, Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones

Robert Thibeau

You know more about that than I do. For Indigenous Affairs, I know very little about the study that took place, but that said, it's quite possible that Mr. Bertrand may know.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Wayne Stetski NDP Kootenay—Columbia, BC

It was a different subject, but it was concerning to me that while some things have been studied before and great reports have been written, very little has changed as a result of those reports. It's more about the principle and, from your perspective, whether this issue that we're looking at today has been studied before and whether the outcome was beneficial in any way.

11:35 a.m.

President, Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones

Robert Thibeau

When you look at committee work, I think you look for answers, but I think we're in a changing day and age too. For example, I know a veteran in Edmonton. He's not a big fan of indigenous treaties or anything like that, because he doesn't understand it. They don't understand that. They don't understand the residential schools, but his grandchild certainly does, because the grandchild now has been exposed to that. She's 18 now. She's been exposed to that.

Bless his heart, when she came to him and asked questions about it, he said, “Go ask Mr. Thibeau, because he'll probably have the answers.” He wouldn't commit himself to any of those negative things that he may have had in his mind or that negativity that he had towards treaties, benefits, or things that the majority of Canadians don't understand.

I really think that we're in a changing society now. We're in a change, where our younger people are starting to take hold of things. That's why I have a positive feeling about the committee that I'm sitting in front of, because I think there's a great deal of the young people who are going to be pushing to get the answers and to get things right that have been wrong for so many years.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Wayne Stetski NDP Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Yes. I was very pleased to see that the committee is taking on this particular issue.

One of the comments you made was that veterans in remote areas, in small communities, are particularly challenged. Can you expand on that?

11:35 a.m.

President, Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones

Robert Thibeau

In Beauval, Saskatchewan, where you'll be visiting, there's a major problem with.... I won't say a “major” problem because they'll give you an insight on what the problem is. They don't have the ability.... It costs them money to go from Beauval to Saskatoon to the Veterans Affairs department.

My suggestion would have been that if you've upped your workers within Veterans Affairs, why can't they go and visit these communities? Establish some sort of a network where they can go, because I've been told—they can verify it for you—that Veterans Affairs won't pay for the people to travel from Beauval to Saskatoon and back. If that's the case, that's not right, because you're dealing with a veteran who has a problem. If it's a mental health problem, you're in deeper water, because this mental health thing is not going away any time soon.