Veterans Affairs Committee on May 22nd, 2018

[BGen J.J.M.J. Paul]

There is a huge emphasis right now on recruiting women. It is, as far as I know, focused specifically on women at large. I'm not tracking any indigenous women-specific programs.

[Wayne Stetski, NDP, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

You have three very successful programs, Bold Eagle in Alberta, Raven from Esquimalt, and Black Bear from New Brunswick. Has there been any thought given to establishing a camp up north that may be more relevant to Inuit people becoming part of it?

[MWO Grant Greyeyes]

Ideas of this nature have been talked about. A lot of the facilities that are required to conduct the training are based heavily on the location of the Canadian Forces base where they are at. All the requirements, so logistical, training areas, and everything that's required to conduct this basic military qualification—and it is a qualification—are surrounded by a training establishment, which we don't have firmly in the north. Although we have training establishments, they're not to the level where we can conduct a course yet.

[BGen J.J.M.J. Paul]

From a training perspective, we always need to ensure that everybody graduating is up to the standards. We don't want to end up in a situation where young aboriginals are showing up at our regular army units or reserve units, where the people would have the feeling that the training they got was not identical to the training of everybody else. That would be a bit of a challenge for these young men and women.

I spoke to a lot of these youth and to many Inuit. What I've heard, as well, is that for many of these people, it's part of the experience. Go south. Live in the south for a few weeks or months. Be introduced to the big city. A lot of these young men and women are going south for the first time. There are pros and cons, I guess.

[Wayne Stetski, NDP, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Right.

I had been thinking about Churchill, which is my hometown. It's not quite Inuit, but it has a long military history, of course, with the U.S. Army being there.

We travelled to Washington last June to look at the benefits American vets get versus what Canadian vets get. One of the statistics we heard, which was quite disturbing, was that the highest suicide rate is among returning Vietnam vets. This may not be your area, but we are looking at indigenous veterans as part of this.

The reason there was such a high rate among Vietnam vets is that when they returned, not only were there potentially PTSD problems, but they were not appreciated. Their service was not appreciated, because the Vietnam War was not thought of in a very positive way.

I'm wondering whether you've heard about or experienced aboriginal vets feeling the same way upon their return from serving with our armed forces.

[BGen J.J.M.J. Paul]

I can offer you my personal experience. I commanded a battle group in Kandahar in 2009. There were 1,300 men and women under my command. When I came back from Kandahar, during that summer, my band council organized a ceremony on my behalf. I was handed an eagle feather by the chief of my band council. All the elders who had seen me growing up in my community were there. It was extremely warm and extremely supportive.

Obviously, everybody might have different opinions. There's a good story that MWO Greyeyes may want to share with you, the one we discussed this morning.

[Wayne Stetski, NDP, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Just quickly, it sounds as if World War I and World War II indigenous veterans probably did not feel so appreciated, but it's a much better situation today. Is that correct?

[BGen J.J.M.J. Paul]

What I lived was very positive, but again, I'm just one case among many.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Ms. Lambropoulos.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thanks for being here today.

Thank you for helping us with our study.

We have met with numerous indigenous witnesses who said they find the Canadian Forces to be a very egalitarian environment where they feel valued. Creating an environment where people feel they will be respected and treated as equal is also a good way to encourage people to join the forces.

At the same time, we are seeing that, when people leave the armed forces, certain populations face barriers that others don't. Indigenous peoples often face barriers that members of the general Canadian population don't.

If the goal really is to increase the percentage of indigenous peoples who join the forces, it's important to also examine the consequences they face when they leave the forces.

You said that the culture in the forces was quite well integrated and that people were very open to doing things differently in order to be more inclusive. What do you do to make sure that continues and that everyone's rights are respected when they leave the military?

[BGen J.J.M.J. Paul]

When our members leave the military, clearly, they are entitled to all the programs Veterans Affairs Canada has put in place. As I mentioned in my opening statement, I like to see that young men and women have gained the skills and experience that will help them transition to civilian life.

That said, it's important to keep in mind that members who come from remote communities may not have very many employment opportunities in those communities. The job prospects are slim for non-indigenous and indigenous people alike.

My wife is originally from the north shore of Quebec; she is Montagnais, Innu. The economic situation on the north shore is tough for members of both communities. When our people leave the military, they have an easier time accessing Veterans Affairs Canada's programs and services when they choose to live in cities. The reality is that the closer they live to a city, the more accessible those supports are.

Would you like to add something at this point?

[MWO Grant Greyeyes]

Not over and above that, sir, no.

[WO Moogly Tetrault-Hamel]

The relationship between indigenous CAF members and our veterans is extremely important.

During my career, that relationship with local indigenous veterans has helped me a lot, and I've even wondered whether I would still be here had it not been for them. They have experienced the same challenges we face. They are like our traditional elders from a military standpoint. Therefore, this relationship is crucial and, I believe, benefits both groups, veterans and active members alike.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

As I was just getting at, obviously, if we have advisers from indigenous communities advising the armed forces, then the same thing for Veterans Affairs would facilitate services and make it better for people who are retiring from the forces.

Thank you very much for everything that you do. I'm going to pass my time on to Mr. Erskine-Smith.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I have only one other question.

You've indicated a number of different programs, but I don't see the spaces allocated for those programs and the number of people who go through those programs. Do you have the number of people served through those programs on an annual basis?

[BGen J.J.M.J. Paul]

I don't have it at hand, but we can—

[MWO Grant Greyeyes]

On an annual basis? Yes, sir.

For the summer programs, Bold Eagle is jumping from 110 to 150 this summer. For Black Bear and Raven, we're trying to populate them up to 60 personnel attending. For the Canadian Armed Forces aboriginal entry program, they have an allocation of 30 positions. However, they have not been able to populate those programs to full capacity.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

What's the deficiency, roughly?

[MWO Grant Greyeyes]

One course only had eight candidates.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Okay. Do they have leadership opportunity here?

[MWO Grant Greyeyes]

They have 30 positions, and last year they had 26.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

For the next five minutes, it's Mr. Samson.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you very much for your input and your service in the forces. We are grateful.

You've definitely given us a great perspective in terms of what we are looking for. Our focus isn't simply veterans, but, rather, indigenous veterans. That's the reason for our study.

Mr. Paul, you said that significant strides had been made over the past 30 years. I don't doubt that. Considerable efforts and energy have been harnessed, and we've seen a real synergy.

I nevertheless have a question. The experience of indigenous veterans, who supported their people and their communities, particularly those coming back from World War I, World War II, the Korean War, and other conflicts, is probably more on the negative side. They were not treated with respect, so the need for education is clear. These people play a pivotal role.

Have you taken any steps in that regard? Although you've come a long way in 30 years, if you go back in time, things were pretty negative. What can we do to make things easier? That effort could also have a beneficial impact on recruitment today.

[BGen J.J.M.J. Paul]

You are absolutely right, sir.

If young people from the community join the forces and have a very bad experience, they will talk about it when they return to the reserve or community. It can have a serious domino effect, because communities are very close-knit.

That is precisely why we have all of these indigenous culture awareness programs in the Canadian Forces. They help ensure that people in training are treated properly.

As far as speaking with older members goes, I would say that is the role of all of us who wear the Canadian Forces uniform; we have a duty to reach out to young community members. When we can have indigenous recruiters, it makes our job that much easier.

To be perfectly frank, I will say that, regardless of race or ethnic background, not everyone leaves the Canadian Forces on a positive note. Some people struggle with life in the military. Not everyone is suited to the military. People can leave with a bitter taste in their mouth because a career in the military was not necessarily what they were expecting. There is no denying the fact that the military is not for everyone.

That said, those of us who have done well make sure to stay in contact with the communities we come from. When an indigenous person talks about their experience, it carries a lot more weight.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

That's very appreciated.

What I wonder about and what concerns me has to do with the follow-up.

We're talking about members of a minority, similar to Acadians, Blacks, and so forth. As I see it, the programs aimed at these groups really have to be tailored to their needs, so I commend you for that.

It would be useful to know whether more people in the regions are taking an interest in the forces. It would also be useful to know the results of these programs. For instance, how many participants in a particular program do not want to return to the forces?

I'd really like some detailed information in terms of results. That would help us make the military a more appealing option and an even better experience for both the army and the indigenous community.

Would you care to comment on that?