Evidence of meeting #16 for Veterans Affairs in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was family.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bryan May
Thank you, Mr. White.
I really hope not to make a habit of cutting you off. I apologize.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank all our witnesses. Their evidence is important. It helps us to clarify and understand what our veterans are going through. I also want to thank them for their service to our country.
We heard some really touching presentations. Ms. Evanshen, I must say that I'm very sympathetic to your cause and sensitive to your situation.
Two weeks ago, we heard from a veteran. He gave us several concrete examples of what veterans face. He told us about his specific case and how he had trouble receiving services in French. He also spoke about all the effects that this can have.
I'll start by asking you a quick question. It may sound silly, but it isn't. Do you know whether this situation has occurred, or may occur, when it comes to services in English?
4:25 p.m.
As an Individual
As far as I am aware, in our instance, it has not been a problem. I'm from Quebec. I speak French, so I understand the hurdles outside of French-speaking areas. Particularly in this regard, I could see how it would be almost like Mount Everest, to be honest, to try to get over it.
It's hard enough to get someone to help. To throw another language in there would be next to impossible, to be honest.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Thank you, Ms. Evanshen.
I'm happy to know that you're from Quebec.
Can you tell us about other major barriers that veterans face? You referred to barriers earlier when you said that sometimes you get a nonsensical answer or two different answers to a question.
4:25 p.m.
As an Individual
Pick up the phone.
We call and leave messages. We send emails. They don't get back to us. We're still waiting. Kevin has sent emails and six, seven and eight weeks go by and we still don't get an answer.
You don't want someone to pick up the phone and call every time they have a problem, but when there is a steady need, you need to help people. Just answer us. Give us a simple answer. We won't necessarily go away, but at least we can understand better. We don't get that.
If someone would just pick up the phone, it would be helpful.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
I see that Mr. White agrees with you, Ms. Evanshen.
Mr. White or Ms. Evanshen, you were talking about calls that you've had to make in the past few months and telephone wait times. How long have you had to wait?
4:25 p.m.
Lieutenant-Commander (Retired), As an Individual
I took a picture of the wait times with my cell phone. The wait times were one hour and 14 minutes, one hour and 40 minutes, or one hour and 15 minutes. It's a constant struggle. First, you need a response. They then transfer you from one department to another. In the end, they give you a name. Otherwise, and this is the most frustrating situation that can occur, they put you on hold and then disappear. You must then start the whole process over again.
And you start the whole process all over again. It is so frustrating. You just give up, which is almost.... I hate to say it, because I know your staff come to work in the morning wanting to do good for people, but that is not the way it comes across, Mr. Chair. It is not the way it comes across. It seems that they just want you to go away, as Tracy so succinctly put it.
The good news is that we keep dying, so we will go away. You just have to wait us out. We keep dying, but in the meantime, it would be nice to have a little, tiny bit of dignity accorded to us by VAC. I'm sorry, but if I get emotional, it's because it is an emotional procedure.
My dear friend Andy Fillmore knows part of the therapy. He tasks us. He calls veterans and says, “I need you to do an income tax run”, or “I need you to do a food bank run” or “I need you to go and visit this guy”. He knows what the answer is going to be when he calls us. The answer is going to be, “I'm on it, Mr. Member”, and we just go. That's our therapy, but we had to do it all within ourselves. I'm sorry, but we had to do it all within ourselves with the faint hope clause that we will get through or that we will find....
Heather MacKinnon should have retired three or four years ago. We need new guardian angels just to know what buttons to push to get through to Veterans Affairs.
I'm sorry; I apologize.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
March 22nd, 2021 / 4:30 p.m.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you, Chair.
I want to thank everybody for their service. In one way or another, you have given a great service to our country.
Perhaps I will start with you first, Tracy. First of all, I want to acknowledge the real story that you told us. I thought it was very powerful to clarify that experience, how much work it is, and much work you have to do just in the forethought, knowing that every step of the way there are going to be more and more challenges.
One of the things you talked about was the fact that you've only been in this for three years and that you're common law and often feel that you don't count. We've heard from VAC that common-law partners are the same as every other partner, but I'm hearing from you that this is not the case. It would really be helpful to this committee if you could explain what you see as the clear differences.
4:30 p.m.
As an Individual
To be honest, it wasn't easy to give you a day in the life. Sometimes not all of these things happen, but by and large, they happen.
Unfortunately, given that I've been with Kevin for three years, it is a fight for recognition that I, much like Gerry said, am a caregiver. He's not a child; he's not a baby. I'm not tending to his diapers and giving him a bottle, although sometimes it feels that way. I hope he's not listening.
You can't go into meetings with them. They won't speak in front of you. I'm not entitled to groups. I'm not entitled to certain benefits. We have to buy into them with what very little we have. As much as he feels marginalized as a veteran, as do most, I don't even come onto the scale. I just feel that I should be under a rock somewhere, and that's where I'm viewed by the powers that be, if that makes any sense at all.
I hope it answered your question.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
It does make sense, and I really appreciate that. I appreciate also the bravery from you to be able to answer these questions so honestly, and share so intimately your experience.
I have just one last question. You talked about the neighbour and all those stresses. When you were telling that story, I was thinking that so many people would say, yes, that would irritate me too. What I really would appreciate, if you can, is to explain what the difference is. What a person who does not have PTSD would experience is one thing, but you're somebody who's living with those realities, and then there's the work that you have to do as the caregiver.
I really want to make sure that we have it on the record, the clear difference you experience because of that history.
4:35 p.m.
As an Individual
There are the dogs, for instance. I have a dog. I have a big dog. He likes to bark. They have two dogs that bark incessantly, so for Kevin it's like nails on a chalkboard. It's a continual nuisance. Then with the police, I call up, I try to buffer. I've gone up there. I've been threatened. They say, “It's dangerous up here, little lady.” I'm like, “I hope you're not talking to me like that because that's not going to bode very well for you.”
It's always at Kevin's expense. The guns will start going off—same family—with no warning. All of a sudden, Kevin is sitting there, everything's grand, and then all of a sudden a barrage of weapons is being discharged 150 feet from our door. I've seen him hit the ground. I've seen him get angry, go to the bedroom, close the door, go under the blankets and not want to come out. I then go back up there again, and my kids are screaming, “Mom, they've got guns.” I'm like, “I don't care, because Kevin means more to me than a bunch of kids playing with guns.” If they want to try, then good luck to them again. Then there's the dirt bike, which is loud, it goes up and down.
You call the police, they come, and in all honesty we were told once by a police officer, “I'm not going up there, they have guns.” I said, “Okay, I'm pretty sure you have one too, so go on up and take care of this.”
It's continual and it can be something as simple as driving down the road and someone inadvertently cuts you off. It sends him into a tailspin. A backfire, the start of a lawnmower, it's all these things that we take for granted that send him somewhere else, and somewhere to a place where we can't get him back from very easily.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you. I think that outlined so clearly what the distinct difference is.
Dr. Whelan, if I could come to you, one of the things you said in your testimony is that the family and caregivers are not trained professionals, yet they're asked to address the issues that the member is experiencing with PTSD and other issues. I'm just wondering if you could speak to the impact on caregivers, but also what we need to put in place to support caregivers.
4:35 p.m.
Lead Psychologist, Whelan Psychological Services Inc.
It's by default that the spouses or partners are given this responsibility because there's nothing else available. Clinicians are not going to meet with them in a crisis. We'll meet with them two or three weeks, and sometimes a month, down the road, so by default it's partners and whoever else who can help them to manage the in-between times, and that gets lost.
The short answer to your question is that the entire family, as I said, needs to be case-managed right from the get-go to rule out consequences for them and the level of responsibilities they have.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
Thank you, Chair, and thank you all for being here today.
I can't help but notice that those who are here in the role of giving assistance are veterans themselves. This just speaks so strongly to the whole case of veterans understanding and helping veterans at every level.
Dr. Whelan, first of all, I appreciate the professional perspective that you bring to this because so often I hear from those who are struggling and it's like they hit a wall when they try to express their concerns. Coming from you, it adds that other level of credibility.
Caregivers' Brigade were here and gave testimony, and today we heard from Ms. Evanshen. These are people who are in the circumstances of experiencing what you call being “invisible linchpins". Their role is essential. I can't help thinking of COVID and how we've all come to realize the importance of essential services. Could you just expound on that essential service that plays such a huge role in the health of our nation, let alone the health of these particular individuals?
4:40 p.m.
Lead Psychologist, Whelan Psychological Services Inc.
Not to get too far off track, but I think it really becomes part of, and an extension of, an ideology that those responsible for managing family life, home life and the emotional culture of that home were, by default, women.
Inadvertently or due to not thinking it through, I think our policies take that for granted in terms of how the departments think about the roles of women in families. It's a no-brainer because nobody wants to acknowledge how much we actually take for granted.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
That's great.
That's the truth. There's a lot of responsibility in that home that people take for granted in the best of circumstances, let alone in these circumstances, so that's very significant.
Dr. MacKinnon, thank you so much for your service, and also for your service now in the role that you're playing.
I keep hearing that we do not have a [Technical difficulty—Editor]. How do we get more doctors who have that understanding and that passion to serve our veterans, both within the armed forces and the RCMP?
It sounds like you are on your own. We hear over and over again that the availability of doctors like yourself is something we should be making a priority, even in how we set up supports for our veterans.
4:40 p.m.
Physician, As an Individual
Well, part of it is because I was in the military for so long, and I was on a lot of missions, and a lot of my patients come from the missions that I was on.
The other part is that I think that you could recruit [Technical difficulty—Editor]. It takes a lot of time, and there's a lot of paperwork involved, and if you're on “fee for service”, you wouldn't get paid very well. I think that's part of it.
There are a few people who do it. There's another doctor who wasn't in the service, but she did work for the service, and she's very good with veterans, so that's two of us.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
You just mentioned that you're paid through “fee for service”, the way it's typically done. Perhaps we need to look at another model in regard to doctors serving veterans with the expertise that you have, just a quick.... I mean we need to do something different.