Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 27th, 2020

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Thank you very much, Bryan.

Colleagues, this is a new committee for me. I'm just getting myself up and running here.

Cathay Wagantall, one of my colleagues, is a regular, and she wanted me to mention something. She's brought this up before, but a veteran was in touch with her. He has 28.5 proud years of service. He applied for his VAC pension a year ago and completed all the paperwork in October 2019. He's just been informed that the application is now in the decision phase, but that it's going to take 64 more weeks to process it, which means a grand total of over two years since he had his paperwork put in.

Frankly, I'm wondering about this. If I'm a veteran and I'm waiting two years.... We need to find out some specific timelines, as MP Blaney was saying. I know you want to get your service requirement down to about 16 weeks, but what is your average processing time for one of these claims? As a new member, I'm finding that two years just sounds really, really long to me. What is your average processing time?

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

Thanks very much for that question, sir. Welcome to the committee. I'm thrilled to be able to work with you.

I'll ask Steven to give an updated data point on this. One of the questions and challenges we have is that, out of compassion, we generally accept all the claims coming in the door, even if there is information missing. That's one of the challenges we have, especially with paper copies coming in. We've been able to improve that process by going more to digital. It's kind of like when you fill out your provincial licences or taxes; your form will go forward only when it's complete. We're dealing with those paper copies in terms of finding information in order to get them complete, and then get the records and get moving on it.

It's over to you, Steven. Where are we at now?

[Steven Harris]

Thanks, Deputy.

It really depends on the condition, of course, what the wait time might be for any individual case, and whether or not there are multiple conditions and which conditions. It might be that it's more complicated, or other.... There are a variety of times, but what I will say is that of course that length of wait time is obviously too long. That is why the number one most important issue for Veterans Affairs to be able to address is working through the wait times.

When you ask about what the time frame would be expected to be, when we talk about the additional resources that the deputy just mentioned and the addition of more than 300 resources coming on—we've already hired more than 300 of them—we do expect to make an additional 80,000 decisions over the course of this year and next, through to March 2022. There's a timeline whereby we expect to make enough decisions to get back down to a backlog—or those files that are beyond the 16 weeks of our service standard—of under 5,000.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

All right. Then I'll ask the chair if Mr. Harris could provide us with the average time that we have right about now. If you want to categorize it, I'm fine with that. I'm just wondering where we are now.

Again, to go back to what my colleague was talking about, my understanding is that the backlog now is about 50,000, which is up 60% in three years. If we keep doing the same thing over and over again, guess what, I don't think we're going to get to where we're going.

I see there is more money being put in there. According to the PBO, VAC's hiring plan will take two years to implement, and it's going to decrease the backlog by 10,000. Yet his plan would wipe out the backlog completely in one year.

What kind of direction have you gotten from the minister's office on how to move forward with this, and who's making the decision on how to move forward? Are you getting some specific direction from the minister? Who are we going to trust here? I hate to say that, but our veterans need to trust somebody to move forward to get this backlog cleared. Are they going to listen to the non-partisan PBO, or are they going to listen to the minister's office?

You're aware of those statistics. What kind of actual direction are you getting from the minister's office? As my colleague was saying, are you able to provide us with the strategy and the plan for the specifics? I'm extremely concerned that we're going in the wrong direction here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

You have just under a minute.

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

Thanks very much, sir.

As Steven mentioned, the number of files of applications we have in the department is in the 40,000 range, and that includes files that we received yesterday. It includes the files that we received last week. The number of those files that were in excess of 16 weeks at the beginning of this pandemic, when I spoke to the committee on March 10, was about 23,000, if my memory serves correctly, and we can confirm that.

What Steven has indicated is that we've actually reduced that 23,000 by about 15%. My understanding is that we are south of 20,000 files that are beyond the 16 weeks. The fact is that we have made all of these additional improvements and now we're bringing on additional staff in order to accelerate decision-making. We are following the plan that the minister has carried forward, and we appreciate all of the support with the additional resources, especially in terms of staff and innovation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

Now, for five minutes, we will go to MP Lalonde, please.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, General and Mr. Harris, and congratulations on your new roles.

First, I want to say congratulations to you and all of your team. As you explained this transition, we were having this conversation on March 10, and suddenly on March 13 everything went in a different direction. Certainly I want to commend you, as well as all the employees and your team, for having transitioned very quickly in these challenging times.

I would just note that this morning the City of Ottawa council liaison for veterans and military issues, Matt Luloff, was appointed. They launched this morning. I want to give a shout-out to the City of Ottawa for having reinitiated this. I certainly appreciate all the great work from Veterans Affairs on this file.

Going back to March 10, General and Mr. Harris, we were actually discussing this backlog. Certainly, I think that for all parliamentarians and for all the veterans there is a concept or an aspect, a sentiment of frustration at times. That's very real. I think we can all agree on that. You did discuss the fact that you were going to bring a plan to address that while we were in the pandemic. Last June, you brought forward a plan. I was wondering if you could share a little bit more. I know that the volume has changed because people are more aware of the services. I want to hear you out on this plan that we have going forward.

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

Madam, thank you so much for the question and, again, thank you for your support to veterans in the Ottawa community and across the country. I really appreciate it.

When I appeared in front of the committee on March 10, I was asked for the plan. The plan had been in process for quite some time. With all of the initiatives that were out there, I appreciated being able to put it together and present it in front of the committee.

Again, we want to walk the talk. We want to move forward to support, as we say in veterans circles, our battle buddies and wingmen and women, our naval colleagues, because they have served and they've done an amazing job.

We know that it's not only about people; this is about process change. This is about cutting bureaucracy, cutting red tape; this is delegating authority to the lowest level to make decisions; this is bundling decisions, so that if we know a person has one ailment, it's probable that they might have a number of other ailments that come along with it. It's about using technology wherever we can—tonight being an example—like taking an audiogram and being able to digitize that, so we can make a decision while maintaining care, compassion and respect.

Finally, it's ensuring that we're bringing on additional staff, but also ensuring that they have the right culture, and it's that culture of giving benefit of the doubt, of compassion.

I'll turn it over to Steven.

[Steven Harris]

I'll keep my remarks brief in case there are additional questions.

We started to talk a little before about some of the additional pieces we're doing. We've been in touch with other jurisdictions as well—our Australian counterparts and others in the Five Eyes countries—to look at how they do their programs and see what we can borrow and glean, and frankly use almost immediately, from some of the experiences and examples they've had. We are also looking to make tools that are better for veterans to be able to use, to improve the online applications experience.

One of the comments was about people understanding what the wait times might be. We're looking to update the application tracking feature, the My VAC Account online application app, to allow people to have some predictability as to what stage their application might be at, so they can see as it moves through the system and as decisions are made—much more transparency and clarity in terms of what they're doing.

Also, on the hearing loss and tinnitus, the deputy mentioned digitization of the audiogram. This is a digital process whereby we'll be able to search through thousands of pages of a service health record and pull out the information that's relevant to the claim being put forward much more quickly than having to go through those pages almost on an individual basis.

I'll leave it there, in case there are additional questions.

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

I can mention that we're also working very closely with the Canadian Armed Forces and the RCMP, so that before their members become veterans, we are addressing their needs, their claims, and all of their unique medical requirements. Before they become veterans and enter into civil society, it's about closing that virtual seam, closing the gap between our institutions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you, and that's time.

Next we have, for two and a half minutes, MP Desilets.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I'm going to fire off a question, because I feel as though we are hearing the same things over and over and not really getting anywhere.

We are talking about vulnerable human beings, people who need you, people who need us. They reach out to us through our constituency offices.

What would you say is the number-one obstacle your department faces? I do not think it's money, since it's raining millions. What is the biggest obstacle you have to overcome in order to clear the backlog?

[Steven Harris]

I can answer that. There are actually two obstacles.

On one hand, the number of claims Veterans Affairs Canada receives has been rising rapidly since 2016.

On the other hand, the system we use to review and approve claims is complex. When a claim involves medical issues, it's a complicated process. It takes time to examine the claims in accordance with the act and the two criteria. In other words, we have to determine not only whether the disability is related to the veteran's service, but also how severe the condition is. It's a highly complex process medically speaking.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I understand, but what you listed aren't obstacles; they're facts.

Since I really don't have much time, I'm going to move on to my next question.

I am new to Parliament and its workings. Is it feasible to ask the department to conduct a mini-assessment, so to speak, of our recommendation, which amounts to hitting the reset button on the backlog? Is it possible to have the department weigh the pros and cons of the recommendation, estimate the financial savings or losses, and assess the risks?

It may be crazy, but we think that, if the department did a reset, things would probably be different two, three or four years down the road. Can't we just assess the recommendation, which is to wipe the slate clean on the backlog—temporarily, anyways—simply to get through the crisis?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

That's time, but I will allow for a very brief answer, please.

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

We share the goal, sir, to eliminate the backlog as soon as possible. We share that goal with you. Again, we appreciate your support in that regard.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

MP Blaney, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

One of the concerns I have is with regard to the folks who are being hired now. I keep hearing this again and again. You talked quite distinctly in the last response to me about how much training they're receiving and how they're going to have the capacity to make decisions and then, hopefully, once that training is done, to move things along more quickly, because they'll have that capacity. But they keep being called “temporary” workers. The PBO report was very clear that we need to hire significantly more than the 300 and that we need to continue to hire to address this issue.

Are they temporary? How long will they be hired for? If they're not temporary, will there be some sort of official announcement to let the world know that these are permanent workers who will be helping us address this backlog?

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

Again, I really appreciate government's support to enable us to hire additional staff, on top of the staff we were able to resource through budget 2018, in order to improve our effectiveness across the board. What I have right now, and what we are working toward, is what government stated back in June. We have two years, at this point in time, of resources, and we're doing our very utmost to train as expeditiously as possible the best people we can across the country in order to fulfill this function.

Steven, you may want to put a little bit more detail on that.

[Steven Harris]

I think the deputy is quite right. In addition to the folks we just identified whom we're bringing on, there are 168 individuals from budget 2018 whom we've been able to keep. These folks are fully trained. They've been working since the start of this fiscal year to continue to make decisions.

We talked about training. That's really targeted into the high-volume applications we see, the most common applications we see. We're training those new people to be able to address those issues. Our more experienced people can then go on to some of the other files that are in the volume of pending applications and address those. We'll target the training on those individuals who are coming in, make them efficient and get them up and running immediately.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

You have 15 more seconds.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Just for clarity, you said that 23,000 people before were beyond 16 weeks and it has gone down 15%. So that would be just under 20,000 now. Is that correct?

[Steven Harris]

Actually, it's just under 19,000.

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

I just want to make sure I get this right: We have veterans who put in multiple claims, so it's 23,000 claims, not 23,000 people. The number of veterans who put in a single claim is very small.