Veterans Affairs Committee on May 5th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

We have MP Samson up next, for five minutes, please.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks for all the presentations we heard today, and thank you to those who have served and those who are contributing directly to the recognition of our men and women who serve.

I want to say hi to my colleagues in Nova Scotia, of course, Mr. Brown and Mr. Woodburn, and thank them for their work that they continue to do here in Nova Scotia to recognize the battle of the Sackville.

I really want to thank you as well, Mr. Harris, for your 42 years of research. It is very important. We need to have you in this study. Your information will be essential.

Also, thank you to my colleagues with the federal retirees and the big questions of who, what and how. These are very important questions for this study.

Mr. Gregory, thank you for your work for young people. I find that very impressive. This is so important in our research as we're going forward.

Mr. Sampson, I believe that you are from Nova Scotia. I don't know whether or not we are related, but it's a pleasure to meet you.

Thanks to all of you for that information. I have three quick questions.

I'll start off with my colleagues in Nova Scotia. You talked about the Sackville. I have a painting of the Sackville right in my office. It's from a veteran. I'm very proud of it, and every time I visit the ship, I'm always impressed.

You talked about celebrations. Very quickly, the Battle of the Atlantic is essential for everyone to know about. How are we celebrating that, not just in Nova Scotia, but in Atlantic Canada and in Canada as a whole?

[Capt(N) (Ret'd) William Woodburn]

Mr. Samson, thank you.

I would say that certainly it's a big deal here in Nova Scotia and Halifax. We do a tremendously appreciated large event in front of the sailors monument down by the oceanfront every year—in a normal year.

I would say that the same happens in Ottawa. There is quite a significant parade and a commemoration that happens in front of the National War Memorial. I'm aware of Victoria as well, where a fairly large contingent of people—large crowds—come out to witness a ceremony.

I'm just not sure elsewhere within Canada how large the commemoration of the Battle of the Atlantic really is.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Maybe that's something you could send us some information on as we finish this study, because that's a very important one. We need all Canadians to be aware of this important battle.

My second question would be directed to Mr. Harris and Mr. Sampson. How do you think we can better apply a service of peace lens to recognize the other wars? We recognize World War I, World War II and the Korean War, of course, but for the other wars as well, how could we apply a better lens to the service of peace?

We'll start with Mr. Harris and then maybe go to Mr. Sampson very quickly.

[Dr. Steve Harris]

I think the idea that Veterans Affairs has developed going forward is to focus on geographical parts of the world over a five-year cycle and then, within that five-year cycle, not repeating the focus each time. If it is a Middle East focus, for example, it may be UNEF 1 on the first go-round that will have the focus, although the whole commitment will be covered, but then the next time it'll be Iraq. The next time, it could be the Jordan-Israeli border.

I think that notion of going around the world geographically on a repetitive cycle but changing the specific focus each time is going to bring out the large number of deployments that there have been.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you. I think that's a very good approach as well.

Mr. Sampson, maybe you could give us your comments around that.

[Kevin Sammy Sampson]

Absolutely, Mr. Samson, and for the record, I'm from the better-looking side of the Sampsons from Nova Scotia.

First off, I agree with Dr. Harris's comments. I think what Veterans Affairs Canada is doing is very good, but I want to make a note that there is no mission classification system. From the service of peace, Rwanda was recorded as a peacekeeping mission, but it wasn't a peacekeeping mission. It was a humanitarian intervention. How do we classify that?

Why is Afghanistan not classified as a war? I just did e-petition 3217 with Mr. Brassard to have the Gulf War elevated into the next class, because there's no mission classification system. It was very successful. Canadians were very concerned.

I submit that the absence of a mission classification system to accurately define missions is key.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you.

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

No, I'm afraid I let you go over a little bit there.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I can't negotiate on that piece.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I'm afraid not. Sorry.

Up next for five minutes is MP Wagantall.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you again, Mr. Chair.

This is just so good. Thank you so much.

I just want to mention, with regard to the Battle of the Atlantic commemoration, that as a brand new member of Parliament back in the first spring that I attended that, it blew me away. The action out on the lawn was late happening. It was raining. It was cold. It took me hours to get over that. Those veterans refused umbrellas—refused. I just looked at them, and I kept saying, “If they can do this, I can do this.” The pictures of them out on the Atlantic covered in ice and what they went through. I don't know how we can explain that further to young Canadians. I regret that we haven't had the opportunity to do that again as members of Parliament.

With regard to what Sammy has said as well, we, as members of Parliament, need to understand what our armed forces go through. I know, to a certain point.... I believe Sammy told me once, “No, you do not want to know; you shouldn't know.” Of course, there are things that are beyond what we can handle, but to just have that level of appreciation....

Sammy, again, you talked about the issues around the Gulf War and then with Afghanistan. Canadians think that they're all wars. If you don't know any different, of course it's a war. When you find out that it isn't a war, you ask why we make these differences. Rwanda.... What I've learned about that circumstance, it is a peacekeeping dynamic.

Our soldiers face horrific things no matter what circumstances they end up in. Why are you so passionate about that recognition of the difference in terms?

[Kevin Sammy Sampson]

Because it's absolutely imperative to veterans. Veterans are very intelligent, and we're very keen on specifics. We're forced to learn policy. We're forced to follow standing operating procedures. Everything makes sense in the military, with the exception of the fact that there's no mission classification system. How can we have defecation drills for using our chemical suits that actually tell us how to go to the washroom while we're using chemical uniforms, but we absolutely do not have a way to clearly communicate to Canadians, to members of Parliament and to veterans what it is that we're asking them to do?

In the case of Rwanda, that changed on the fly in 1994 when we were on the ground: new rules of engagement, new mission. Everything changed. As veterans, we were standing there confused. We absolutely did not know what was going on. I'm very passionate about fixing that for young Canadians who take a chance on the Canadian Armed Forces.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

That's where you're saying, though, that would change your perspective on commemoration—

[Kevin Sammy Sampson]

Absolutely.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

—that that isn't dynamic.

[Kevin Sammy Sampson]

Yes, absolutely.

I think it's important to have that classification. Just to be clear, since 1941, everything we've done has come with a United Nations Security Council resolution. Those are very specific in telling us what is happening on the ground and what they want us to do. However, what happens is that it gets muddled when National Defence tries to speak to Canadians.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Okay, that's great. Thank you. I really wanted clarification there.

With regard to our navy and our air force.... We have the Moose Jaw base. We're so proud of the things that we have in Saskatchewan that very few people are aware of. We also have, I believe it's called HMCS Unicorn, in Saskatoon. It's a building, but they train as though they are on a ship. Apparently, we prairie boys and prairie gals make great sailors because of our horizons and the waves of the fields and whatnot.

I went out on the HMCS Fredericton. I am not a good prairie girl navy person in any way, shape or form. I've never been so sick in my life. However, the experience was phenomenal. I sometimes get concerned about.... I mean, we have the navy, the air force and our ground troops. Do we do enough to recognize the navy and the air force? I think our ground soldiers who face that face-on type of battle sometimes.... I'm not saying we should take away from them at all. I'm asking if we need to do more to really appreciate, learn about and understand our navy and our air force.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Give a brief answer, please.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

I'm sorry I took too long.

[Capt(N) (Ret'd) William Woodburn]

I'll jump in.

One hates to put one element of the Canadian Armed Forces against another. I would say the battles that happened at sea are out of sight and, to some degree, out of mind. I hate to put it this way. One of the luxuries that a soldier may have is to go back and visit the ground he once fought on, to remember and relive what happened there and to really mark hallowed ground. It's a very difficult thing, and another thing for a sailor to do that. There is no place to go; it's out at sea.

That's where monuments like Sackville allow sailors to come to some place. As Sammy said, it's a place to gather. The sailor's monument in Point Pleasant Park is exactly that way.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

Sorry, Mr. Woodburn.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you.

[Capt(N) (Ret'd) William Woodburn]

No, that's fine.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I have to keep us moving, here.

MP Casey, you have five minutes, please.