Veterans Affairs Committee on May 28th, 2021

[Cpl Christopher Lohnes]

I would suggest that if you're looking at a standard, it has to be more than an obedience- or task-oriented, directed standard. It's not “walk your dog down the street and turn around, turn left, turn right”. We've learned through doing the research—which backs up our own notion—that we have to take veterans and companion dogs through the different environments they function in, and in each one, ask whether the team is working together to make both of them safe, present and functional.

There have to be specific service dog tasking and mental health observations that say,“Yes, this is a service dog. It's not a comfort dog. It's not a companion dog. It's not a pet.”

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

That's time, I'm afraid.

Up next we have MP Desilets for six minutes, please.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses. Your knowledge is very useful to us.

My first question is for you, Mr. Lohnes.

We are all trying to use the best practices, the best evidence and the best science. My understanding is that a number of provinces across Canada are putting forward certain practices, and Saskatchewan is setting an example for us to follow.

Are you able to compare the provinces? Do any provinces stand out in particular with respect to service dogs? If so, how do they stand out?

[Cpl Christopher Lohnes]

I can answer by saying that Nova Scotia, Alberta and B.C. follow a standard that is obedience-based. Their certification or testing for that is about 45 minutes to an hour long, from the people I've spoken to who have gone through it, and there appears to be no mental health component on their side of things.

New Brunswick follows the disabilities act, and as long as your dog is functioning within that, they're supportive of service dogs in that province.

In Ontario, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, the Territories and Yukon, from what I understand, we are putting forward an idea to the Saskatchewan government for what we believe is an open, attainable standard for service dogs. I understand MSAR is working with the Manitoba government. I'm not sure what's going on in Ontario right now, because there are a number of varying interests there.

[BGen (Ret'd) Peter Holt]

May I add something, Mr. Desilets?

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Sure. Go ahead.

[BGen (Ret'd) Peter Holt]

As I said, we need to have an open mind when it comes to standards. Let me repeat that what matters is mental health.

I see soldiers with whom I have worked for many years who are not the same as they were 10 years ago, before they were deployed to Afghanistan or wherever. So it is important to consider the mental health aspect.

We are looking for a good dog, who can follow commands and all that, but I think you have to balance the mental health of the veteran with the behaviour of the dog in terms of obedience.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Would you say that we are leaning more towards a certain type of service dog for therapeutic purposes in Canada?

[BGen (Ret'd) Peter Holt]

As you have heard, in Ukraine and Germany, they are used for therapeutic purposes, but that is another area.

We sort of use them for therapeutic purposes, but the dogs are also owned by, and partners of, the veterans. They are battle buddies, as I said. As a veteran, I understand that model. The dog is part of your soul. I totally understand what a battle buddy is. If we use that idea to convince our veterans, and sometimes it's hard, they're going to understand it one hundred percent.

Unfortunately, Dr. Brock is not here, but she has a therapy dog because she is a psychologist and it is a perfect fit for her. However, a service dog is a little different.

I hope I have made that clear.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Yes, you are very clear. Your French is excellent.

[BGen (Ret'd) Peter Holt]

Thank you.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Earlier, you referred to open standards.

Wasn't that sort of related to the problem at the Canadian General Standards Board?

[BGen (Ret'd) Peter Holt]

Yes, it was.

Chris, did you get that?

You are exactly right, Mr. Desilets.

Chris, it's the question of the standards. There are some people who want the standards to be closed rather than open. That's the issue of just wanting an obedient dog rather than a psychiatric service dog. Isn't that right?

[Cpl Christopher Lohnes]

If I could add in, and this may help a bit, we know from the research that dogs will help you, no matter what. A pet will help you. However, what we found in the research is that veterans going through the program and learning with their dogs, going through all the struggles, develop new pathways in their brains.

If we're truly looking at helping veterans regain some kind of—for lack of a better word—normalcy, reconnecting pathways in the brain to retain long-term and short-term memory improvements is a key ability for them to once again be able to function within the family, with friends and in their community.

I'm dealing with an MLA in Saskatchewan right now who was given a fully trained—supposedly fully trained—service dog. When I met him and started working with him, he had no idea of some of the things that his dog was doing, because there was no work put into him. He was just given a supposedly fully trained dog.

If you don't know what the possibilities are, how do you know what that dog can do for you, if you haven't learned about it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you. I'm afraid that's time.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

MP Blaney is next for six minutes, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I thank the witnesses so much for their important testimony today.

I have to confess that, even though this is only our second day on this study, I am feeling a bit of frustration. I felt it already because so many veterans have talked to me about the specific challenges that they face, for example, receiving a dog that isn't trained to support them in the way they need to be supported. I have heard from veterans who have a service dog, but there are no national standards that would make it easier for them to say, “Yes, you must rent me that house. You say no dogs. This is not just a pet. This is something so much more.”

My concern is that, without national standards, we don't have the veteran focus at the end. We need to make sure they get the services, and that should be our focus.

I have some questions, and again, thank you so much for your testimony. You talked about standards, and the standards you have. Could you tell us a bit about what they are? Are they training standards? Are they conduct standards for members, or are they a mixture of both?

[BGen (Ret'd) Peter Holt]

I may be accused of being disrespectful, but the answer is yes.

I'm sorry; my sense of humour has been my downfall.

You're absolutely right. The dog and the veteran become a team. We identify them as service dog teams. From the times I've been on deployment, I know that your team modifies your own behaviour, and you modify the team's behaviour.

It's hard to describe. If you saw.... That's the advantage of seeing what happens to some of these veterans who have difficulty getting out their front doors. Once we go through the training, they're shopping at Walmart. Mind you, they can't do that now, but they can get out and do things. They're out in public. They have confidence. It's marvellous. They're back to being the people I recognized when they worked for me.

You're right. It's a combination of the two, and yes, there's the frustration of not having national standards. We're going through the province, because the national standard thing didn't quite work.

I was so thrilled when I saw what you're working on in this committee, because you're exactly in the right space. This is what needs to be done, so congratulations to the committee for tackling this.

Hopefully, it's not going to be Don Quixote-ish. I hope there's not a big windmill that's going to hit you, but this is so important. It is a national problem—no, a national challenge. It's a challenge. We don't have problems; we have challenges.

[Cpl Christopher Lohnes]

If I could add, you asked a question specific to our program.

In order for someone to go through our certification, we don't test; we certify. Because of the brain injury, we don't know how long it's going to take someone to get through the program. You may be able to get through things in eight months, whereas it would take a veteran 12 months to do it because we're reformatting how they learn and remember things.

Of course we're going to have some base stuff that we do around some obedience skills, but the key thing is not to do the obedience skills. It's seeing how they are connected. Is the dog looking for direction from the handler and looking to see what it has to do for support? How is the timing and presence for both?

When we start moving into the full certification, it's three days long for us. It's three days long for a very important reason. For someone to be able to function at home with their friends or neighbours or in the community, they have to be able to manage their triggers, and some of them can be very bad. How they manage their triggers is through the skills and the development of the skills that we've shown them.

During our process, yes, we take them for a walk here and there, in different places. We take them in the environments that they need to function in. If you never go to Costco, I'm not taking you to Costco because you're never going to go there, but if you're going to your doctor's office five days a week, we're going to do some work there to see how you're functioning there. How are you in the doctor's waiting room? How are you in the doctor's office?

It's always looking at whether the team is present. If they're present, they're safe. If they're not present or their timing is off, then they can't see their surroundings so they're not safe in that environment. That means we have to go back to the drawing board and help them more for that specific environment.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

That's really helpful.

I'm wondering two things. First, have you ever had your standards reviewed by a third party, or are they just internal? That third party is really the next step if we're going to have a more national standard. I'm curious about that.

Second, can we get a copy of your standards? Do you have something that the committee could actually review and make sure it's represented in our report?

[BGen (Ret'd) Peter Holt]

I'll answer the last question first. I believe I sent a copy of the standard, the Saskatchewan one, to MP Cathay Wagantall.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

If we could get it sent to the clerk, that would mean that all of us would get it. I would really appreciate that.

[BGen (Ret'd) Peter Holt]

I can't remember. Did I send it to the clerk? I'll make sure.