Evidence of meeting #31 for Veterans Affairs in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was dogs.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

William Webb  As an Individual
Marc Lapointe  Certified Trainer, Meliora Service Dogs
Joanne Moss  Chief Executive Officer, The Canadian Foundation for Animal-Assisted Support Services
Carl Fleury  Meliora Service Dogs

5:35 p.m.

Meliora Service Dogs

Carl Fleury

Meliora's symbol is the dandelion. This is recognized as the symbol of military children. This flower, with its little seeds that fly away, is the symbol of our organization.

I personally use a service dog. We've been talking about standards for the past while. I agree that we really need to set a standard across the country.

It should also be noted that anyone can order on Amazon, in just five minutes, a service dog identification card that will be valid here in Canada. This situation is an issue right now. It's absurd. Anyone can get a service dog identification card without taking a course. The card costs $35 and is delivered free of charge to your home.

Once we've established a national occupational standard, we must set a national standard for service dog identification cards. This could be a dog passport, or a recognized card routinely issued with the dog. We need something similar to a Canadian passport, but for service dogs. As a result, there would be no way to access counterfeit cards. It's necessary to eliminate all these types of cards that anyone can order. If someone goes to a public place with their dog and shows this type of card to the person in charge and the person accepts it, given the lack of a set standard, and then something goes wrong, we'll end up paying the price.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

Sure.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

What I love to see is the charitable side of this, and you guys do all of this work. A number of different organizations do this, and there's no huge cost for the dog.

I have an autistic grandson. The family would have loved to have a proper service dog, but they would have had to pay thousands of dollars. Fortunately, I have a son who I think was born to be a trainer, so the dog does what the family needs him to do.

How do you make sure that dogs are not being sold as something they are not without these standards? How much corruption has been going on when a $30,000 dog really isn't capable of doing what people have been told it will do?

Do you find that this is happening?

5:35 p.m.

Meliora Service Dogs

Carl Fleury

I dealt with a breeder through the service dog route, so his puppies were fit to become service dogs. It's still an animal, and sometimes the dog can't be trained properly. In my case, things went very well and my service dog and I were a perfect match.

I would have a hard time—

5:35 p.m.

Certified Trainer, Meliora Service Dogs

Marc Lapointe

I would like to answer that.

When you go to Alberta and B.C., they ask you to prove that the service dog reacts to your disability. For example, I'm having a seizure. I need to pretend to have a seizure for my dog to interrupt me and show that I've trained my dog as a service dog. That is ridiculous. You cannot fake—

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK

You can't fake a seizure.

5:40 p.m.

Certified Trainer, Meliora Service Dogs

Marc Lapointe

You cannot fake stuff like that, but you can train that into a dog, right?

How do we know if that's a real service dog? You'll see. A dog never lies. You will see it. It's professionally trained. It's there for the member. It's not obstructive, right? It's doing its job. It has tasks. I would say in my book that it's at least a minimum of three tasks: nightmare interruption, grounding, and exiting a building, because you're in a panic or whatever.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you very much. Sorry, MP Wagantall, but that's time.

Next we have MP Samson for five minutes, please.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

Thank you, Chair, and thank you for your service, all of you, and for the excellent presentations you made today.

It's only been four meetings, but it seems as though we've had info from all different angles, and sometimes I have questions.

On July 20, 1969, we went to the moon, and in 2021, we still can't establish standards. That's unbelievable. We've got to get through this, and we've got to get through this as quickly as we can to support our veterans in their communities. It's got to be a top priority as we move forward.

Mr. Webb, I really enjoyed your presentation. It was very factual, clear and concise, but I'd like you to expand.

Throughout the last two or three years, really, it's been evident that the service provider seems to have been the cause of the.... The Canadian General Standards Board was the problem. You seem to make that clear.

Mr. Webb, if you were the decision-maker today, what would you do? How are we going to get through this? Tomorrow or next month, how are we going to have standards? You talked about getting Veterans Affairs out of there. Could you tell me in one minute how you would do this? How would you establish standards?

5:40 p.m.

As an Individual

William Webb

I would ask all the producers to provide all of their documents, their standards, their training methodology—all of that information. All of that could be deposited into one central location. The standard could then be pulled out of all that information. The reluctance of industry to share that information among each other is such a problem, because everybody believes that their way is the right way, and in fact it's not.

There should be one.... I could go on about everybody having to have a standardized service dog vest so that everybody's vest would look the same across the board if we had a national standard. I could get into all of that.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

Thank you. I like that. Share, and if you don't share, too bad; we move on. We've just got to cut the mustard, if you'll allow me. I know Scott would appreciate that.

When you talk about access, it kills me. I know that Nova Scotia has done some really good work about access with your service dog. Your being denied is just a sad story. That's such an important part. I'll give you 30 seconds on that one.

June 14th, 2021 / 5:40 p.m.

As an Individual

William Webb

You can call me on Monday morning. I will be heading home Sunday from Manitoba with my new service dog, and I guarantee you that when I get on BC Ferries on Monday, I will be denied access to the passenger decks because my service dog is from Courageous Companions and not Assistance Dogs International.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

That's terrible.

5:40 p.m.

As an Individual

William Webb

It's going to happen.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

Thank you.

Monsieur Lapointe, you made the reference—and I think we've heard it right through the four meetings—that service dogs are crucial for people with PTSD and veterans with PTSD. It works. I've spoken to a number of veterans and I've seen with my own two eyes veterans with their service dogs and how it really helps them. I think we know that. Now we just have to get to the task.

Monsieur Lapointe, you brought up a couple of points. I think maybe you want to expand on them, but I really enjoyed hearing you talk about that funding insurance that the Americans are paying for, and also that veterans survey. Those two sound good. Do you want to expand on those very quickly?

5:45 p.m.

Certified Trainer, Meliora Service Dogs

Marc Lapointe

Basically, veterans have a certain financial burden at some point, and adding the service dog adds to the costs. If by malchance your dog gets injured or needs surgery and things like that, it's overwhelming, not only with our traumatic condition, our PTSD, but it's “Oh fuck, my dog is going to the hospital.” I'm talking like a real person on the street here.

It would be helpful if Trupanion could be paid by Veterans Affairs Canada for those services and those surgeries. Those are thousands of dollars, right? That would be helpful.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

I find this idea compelling. It would involve providing insurance, as is done for a number of other things.

I was going to fire at Carl, because I really liked the passport. I hope we're—

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Darrell, I'm afraid that's time. I'm sorry, guys.

Up next we have MP Desilets, please, for two and a half minutes.

5:45 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Should we be setting standards? Should we just establish criteria and let the provinces make their own decisions in this area? It isn't clear to me yet.

In your opinion, Mr. Fleury, would it make sense to conduct a national survey of veterans who own assistance dogs to determine their level of satisfaction and whether the people whom they're dealing with provide good after‑sales service, for example?

5:45 p.m.

Meliora Service Dogs

Carl Fleury

That's a very good question.

I think that this would make sense. At Meliora, we do our best to provide outstanding service. We're veterans and first responders who help others. This would be a good thing.

5:45 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Mr. Lapointe, if I were to ask you the same question, how would you respond? Should we make that recommendation in our report?

5:45 p.m.

Certified Trainer, Meliora Service Dogs

Marc Lapointe

I think that it would be good to do this with the help of Ms. Moss from the University of Saskatchewan and the University of Regina. Research on service dogs and veterans has already been under way for four years.

That said, we must be careful when it comes to people's perceptions. Conducting a survey can be a good thing. However, people who are negative and who always see life in bleak terms may not respond positively to the survey questions.

5:45 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

They won't respond positively.

5:45 p.m.

Certified Trainer, Meliora Service Dogs

Marc Lapointe

It's a matter of taking some and leaving some. Certain people will say that it's necessary and that it has changed their life. It's like with anything else. Some are happy, some aren't.

Even so, I think that we need to get input from our veteran members. If they're given the chance to provide input on what the organization should be and on what has helped them, they'll feel more involved.

In addition, you would have access to fair information from an ethical standpoint. Since the information would come from veterans, there wouldn't be any bias. The council formed would be able to decide, based on the veterans' recommendations, whether it's necessary to monitor a particular organization more closely.

5:45 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

This would help ensure that the recommendations are a little clearer.