Evidence of meeting #4 for Veterans Affairs in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bryan May
I would have to check with the clerk to see whether that has been submitted. If not, we will give him the opportunity to share it with our committee and make sure it is distributed to all members.
Oh, sorry—are you asking Mr. Giroux, or me?
1:45 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Mr. Giroux alluded to this earlier, but it wasn't clear to me whether he would be doing it or not. Will Mr. Giroux be providing the committee with the numbers for the rejection rates? It is in relation to the automatic approval process.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bryan May
I will ask Monsieur Giroux if it is possible for him to send that information to the clerk of ACVA, and we'll make sure it gets out to all committee members. Okay?
Again, I thank all of you, witnesses, for your participation today. We will ask you to log off Zoom now, and I will recognize MP Brassard who has committee business for today.
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to make sure that we are in public as well. Is that correct?
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON
Okay.
Mr. Chair, given the evidence we received today, not just from the minister but also from these very compelling witnesses, I've submitted a motion to the clerk in both official languages and I'll put the motion on the floor right now. It is as follows:
That the committee is disappointed with the lack of progress shown by the government in clearing the backlog of applications for veterans disability benefits and reports this motion to the House.
Would you like me to speak on it, Mr. Chair?
1:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bryan May
You have the floor, sir.
Just so everybody knows, we will continue using the “raise hand” function in the participants section of Zoom. If you wish to speak, the order I currently have is as follows: Mr. Brassard, Darrell Samson, Andy Fillmore, Sean Casey, and Marie-France Lalonde.
I think, Monsieur Desilets, you had your hand up on your screen, so if you could jump on Zoom and put up your hand virtually—there it is—we'll go from there.
Mr. Brassard, you still have the floor.
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate being given this opportunity to deal with this motion.
Quite frankly, this is the most pressing issue that's facing our veterans community today. I have heard—as I am sure many members of Parliament have—from veterans across the country about just how concerned they are about the backlog. We have lawsuits that have been launched against Veterans Affairs as a result of the backlog.
I think what was most striking to me during the testimony we heard from our subsequent witnesses was the fact that when we talk in the context of backlogs, we have to remember that these are people who served this country, who signed the blank cheque, as Mr. Walbourne said, and their families. When they get caught up in these types of situations, it has a profound effect on the state of their families, the state of their mental health and the confidence they have in their government's ability to have their backs and “have their six”.
What I heard from the minister today, quite frankly, was the same thing we've been hearing for many months: that this is a priority for the minister. I don't doubt that it is a priority for the minister, but what most concerns me is the fact that the process is not in any way—at least, I'm not confident in this—going to change to address this backlog in a manner that is required.
We've heard there are options available. I truly.... I lost my temper with the minister because I'm tired of hearing.... I've been dealing with this for four years, in my previous stint as veterans affairs critic at the time, and we have heard Mr. Walbourne talk about this for 11 years. This is not a people issue. This is a process issue, and there are process recommendations that have been made over the years to address this situation. We heard a lot of those process recommendations today.
My fear is that those recommendations are not even being considered by the government. What we're doing is effectively layering on more bureaucracy—more process, in a way—for veterans, and hoops and hurdles for them to have to go through to have their claims processed. We're hearing and seeing this, and Mr. Scott talked about the cases, the lawsuits across this country, because veterans are feeling compelled now to sue their government, despite the fact that the Prime Minister said that no veteran should have to fight their government in court for the benefits they deserve. We're seeing this happen across the country, because that level of frustration and anxiety is happening within the veterans community and in their families.
I am not confident, walking away from this meeting—and I think the evidence is pretty clear—that things are going to change any time soon. We made specific reference to the fact that government turned on a dime—on a dime—when the COVID crisis hit to allow the CERB benefit, the student benefit and the wage subsidy to go out the door quickly. In many cases, as was mentioned, for the student benefit, 15- to 18-year-olds, by simply pressing “send” on a computer, were having money deposited into their accounts within a period of three to five days, yet here we are with a backlog that is well beyond where it needs to be and, in some cases, yes, it's lasting two years.
The process has to be improved to a point where I believe that we give veterans the benefit of the doubt, and in the context of COVID, it's becoming increasingly difficult for veterans to be able to supply to Veterans Affairs the information, the documentation and the medical documentation that's required in order for them to have their claims processed and adjudicated.
As for throwing more people at this problem, while it may have an impact in the longer term, in the near term I'm not confident. What this motion reflects is my lack of confidence in the government's ability to address this issue in the immediate term, the emergency term, the urgent term that our veterans and their families are facing right now. They cannot, Mr. Chair, continue to have their claims go through a process that is not working for them.
Quite frankly, I didn't get the sense today—I certainly heard this from the Parliamentary Budget Officer, and I didn't hear it from the minister—that there was any sense of confidence that this thing, this backlog problem, is going to improve any time soon. I think the House needs to be made aware of not just what we heard today, and I think there has to be some discussion within the House on the solutions that are possible to provide the government in order to fix this very dire, very grave situation for veterans and their families in this country.
I propose this motion, Mr. Chair, with the sincerest intent to find a resolution to this.
Thank you.
1:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bryan May
No. Could you move your microphone close to your mouth? Is it plugged in?
November 12th, 2020 / 1:55 p.m.
Liberal
Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS
I'm sorry. Usually my voice carries very well. That microphone is quite effective. I'm noticing that as we move forward.
I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak on this motion.
I have to be honest with all of you that today's presentation was touching. It was moving. It was difficult to listen to, because we want and need to do better, and we have to do better. I don't think anyone disagrees with that.
History teaches us well. History allows us to better understand where we came from, where we're at and where we need to go. We can't forget; we're unable to. Let's be honest now. There were cuts made in 2014. Those cuts eliminated 1,000 front-line workers and nine offices around the country.
Why it was done, I'm not questioning that. All I'm interested in is making sure we understand the real picture. The real picture is that in 2014-15 these cuts were made. That, by itself, would have put.... All of you, no matter which party you're sitting with, understand the devastation that had on veterans and veterans communities and on the backlog—that is without a doubt. If we look at ourselves in the mirror, it is very, very clear.
The second thing that is extremely clear is that since 2015, when our government took power, we have invested over $10 billion. That's not just money. These were programs, very important programs that had been shared by the veterans community: the education fund; the lifetime pension, bringing it back; all the various programs, caregivers, etc. These additional programs allowed many, many veterans now to make applications for benefits for themselves and their families. We have to be honest there. There is no question about that.
When you see 60% more applications, when you see 90% more first-time applications, when you see the increase in funding that we've added or the percentages of injury, where now you have a second and a third application from the same individual, that has to be taken into consideration. It is extremely important. That's the intake.
Now let's look at the outtake. We've indicated clearly that in the last five, six, seven, eight months there has been an improvement of over 4,000 cases that have been eliminated, over and above the backlog. This is going back. It means we're making headway, which is very positive.
The PBO just mentioned in his statement today that with his report, with what we have today, without taking his extra additional...but with what we have today, without taking all the policy changes, there would be an elimination of 10,000 from the backlog. That's without his additional hires.
You also have to keep in mind that Veterans Affairs brought forward this plan in June, and hirings are taking place now as we speak. I praise them for their recruitment. I understand they're making great progress on hiring all those numbers. I believe they're at 300 out of 350 today. They'll be ready for effective work in January.
The plan, including the new hires, the digitalization, the common applicants, if you will, the innovative process.... With all those pieces in the plan—which is not at work yet; it's just beginning—there will be that much more work being done in those categories once we have the 350 hired.
That being said, let's allow the plan. Let's work together to bring us forward. What we heard today is a clear sign of progress, and a lot of extra progress once we hit the ground with the new hires, as well as all the added pieces to the plan. Let's be fair and say that as a committee, we listened today. We received information that allows us to see progress, not as fast as we would have liked, but progress. We're confident that in the new year, with the plan in its full capacity, we will continue to see much more progress in 2021. That's to be fair.
To say that we didn't hear that there was progress made or that the pieces that are put in place now in the new plan will not bring progress is unacceptable. I can't support that.
I can tell you that we can do better. The people who have contributed today are helping us. All of us around the table who are bringing forward the various cases are helping us in moving that forward.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
2 p.m.
Liberal
Andy Fillmore Liberal Halifax, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that very much.
As the minister said earlier today, and as I'm sure all committee members agree, the existence of the backlog is unfortunate. It's unacceptable. And 100%, we all need to work on fixing the backlog. That's what this study is all about.
I would say that, at best, Mr. Brassard's motion is entirely premature before the study is complete. At worst, it is partisan political posturing at its worst. I've intervened in the last Parliament and again in this Parliament to point out how this backlog arrived. As Parliamentary Secretary Samson has pointed out, let's recall that it's a direct result of what happened the last time the Conservative Party was the government. It applied partisan politics to Veterans Affairs in an attempt to balance the budget on the eve of a federal election, eliminating 1,000 jobs, closing nine regional offices, slashing tens and tens of millions of dollars from the VAC budget. That's what caused these backlogs.
Contrast that with this government, which has invested billions of dollars back into our veterans and is now spending $2 billion per year more on veterans than the Conservative government did in 2014-15, and the slew of new supportive programs that we've enacted for veterans. Because of these new programs, demand for the programs is higher than ever, which has the effect of compounding the Conservative-created backlog. In fact, a measure of the success of our new programs is that, according to VAC, in the time since we formed the government, the number of applications received grew by 40%.
I might remind the opposition of what famously happened when the Obamacare website was launched in 2013. The site was overwhelmed with applications. The site crashed. This wasn't an indication that Obamacare was flawed; it was quite the opposite. The website crash was an indication of the success of the program that was finally invested in after a period of conservative budget cuts in that country.
The success of our government's VAC programs and the demand that success has created is why we are rehiring employees who were dismissed and reinvesting money that was slashed under the Conservative government.
Mr. Chair, if Mr. Brassard would like to proceed with his motion, I'd like to propose the following amendment to his motion. If it's in order, I'd like to read the amendment now.
2:05 p.m.
Liberal
Andy Fillmore Liberal Halifax, NS
It would read: That the committee is disappointed with the previous government's decision to cut jobs within Veterans Affairs Canada and to close veterans services offices across the country, as far too many veterans are waiting far too long for their application to be processed, and to report this motion to the House.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
2:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bryan May
Thank you.
I'm going to confer with the clerk on how to proceed. Give me two seconds, please.
Other people have their hands up, but we do have to deal with the amendment before moving on.
Could MP Fillmore please read the amendment again slowly—
2:05 p.m.
Liberal
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
