Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2024

[Harold Davis]

When I finally got a hold of former prime minister Mulroney, he was amazed that it hadn't been done. He didn't know. He turned around and said to me, “We've got to fix this”. Those were his exact words.

He became one of our supporters. He came to the war museum a couple of years back and presented Gulf medals and Kuwait Liberation Medals, along with the Kuwaiti ambassador, to veterans who never received their medals—33 years later, almost. I was walking with him and MP Brassard, and he told him that they had to get that fixed. He didn't even know at the time. As to why he didn't know, I cannot answer that question. To me, it goes right back to National Defence.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

That meeting was about two years ago, wasn't it?

Did you also meet with him when he was prime minister?

[Harold Davis]

No, I did not, sir—only at the war memorial.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I'm very hopeful because our Conservative friends and Blake Richards have clearly said that this has to be remedied. If the Conservative Party came to power—and I did say “if”—the problem would be fixed, would it not?

My next question is for whomever wishes to answer. It may seem a bit odd, but here it is.

In your view, was Canada directly involved in combat in the Persian Gulf, or did its role focus more on supporting the countries officially at war?

[Harold Davis]

Canada.... I cannot answer that question 100%, because I'm what we call a “lower ranker”—I fixed a helicopter—but in talking to other officers and stuff like that, our air force, towards the end of the war, was flying bombing runs, and that's written down. That's on DND or...I can't remember the site, but it's written that they started. I have pilot statements that even say the same thing. We've got that and we were in the Gulf, but we never turned around and fired a shot. My ship was a protective ship for the USNS Mercy, the hospital ship. We were protecting her while we were in the gulf, but there were other ships.

We went into minefields to bring out ships that had hit mines and couldn't turn a screw. We went in to get a ship out. When you ask about combat, we never had combat troops in there; we had a hospital for our injured. The only ones I knew were the pilots who flew bombing missions towards the end of the mission; plus, we had one who was shooting an Iraqi gun boat.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

You mentioned a letter that Mr. Mulroney had sent you. Did I hear that correctly?

Would you be able to provide the committee with a copy of the letter?

[Harold Davis]

Mike submitted 14 different documents to the committee, and the letters were in there also.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Was the letter one of the documents?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Malachie Azémar]

No, it isn't, because it was in English only. I sent it to translation.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

All right. We'll get it once it's been translated.

I have another question for you.

Do you, personally, see a difference between special duty service and wartime service? Is there a difference?

[Mike McGlennon]

The closest things that we can find in government documentation.... In one place, it gives a description of what medical insurance coverage is applicable to special duty service. It uses the language “heightened risk”. It doesn't give me the definition of what a “special duty area” mission is, but I found a definition in Veterans Affairs about what the level of insurance is, and that's “heightened risk”.

When you get to war, wartime service, I testified earlier that we could not find any definition in government publications or National Defence that will help us, you and me, understand what my wartime service is. The closest example that I can find and give to you is in the criteria needed for battle honours, which is an internal National Defence process that I'll get into later, if I get an opportunity to speak about it, and it is to actively participate with a formed and armed enemy.

I'm not a lawyer, but that sounds like a good starting point for “wartime service” versus “heightened risk”.

That's the best I have. Thank you.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. McGlennon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

Now, on the screen, we have with us Ms. Rachel Blaney, and she has six minutes to ask questions.

Please go ahead.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair

A special thanks to both Harold and Mike. I'm really delighted that you're here, and I'm sorry that I'm not able to be there with you.

I see that behind you there are a few members who have also served. I want to thank not only you for your service, but also the folks behind you for their service as well. Thank you for being here to stand in solidarity.

My grandfather was a veteran of the Korea War, and I remember you, Mike—educating me about the fight that the Korean veterans took on to get their service recognized, and it's unfortunate that it seems as if every new generation has to do this fight now.

I'm wondering if either of you could talk about what this fight has felt like for you. I think what I've heard clearly from you is that it's both about the benefits and about the acknowledgement part. I'm just wondering if you could tell us what those two things are. What would be the fundamental change that would make this right for you, and what change needs to happen to make sure that there are never veterans fighting this fight again?

[Mike McGlennon]

Thank you for that question, Rachel.

The difference in commemoration is rather large. I understand why, and I actually agree with it in some levels. During my service career, I had five different tours, one of which I think qualifies me to be reidentified as a wartime service veteran, and for the other four, I'd be happy with my special duty service designation. Currently, all five of them are designated as “special duty area” service.

This country, rightly so, has put a lot of focus on the sacrifices and the military history—and for extremely important reasons—of their wartime service veterans. I had the good fortune to be posted to SHAPE in Belgium for three years. I was basically on the French-Belgian battlefield sites within a couple of hours' drive, so I made it a personal goal to go visit all the cemeteries and to go to Vimy Ridge. The experience made me feel extremely small. I really don't know if I would have had the courage to do what those soldiers before me did, but it was my way of paying homage to their service.

As I'm speaking about this, I'm getting chills up my back.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Really what you're saying, Mike, is that it's the definition that needs to be clearer so that it's more transparent.

[Mike McGlennon]

Well, at the moment, my military history records are inaccurate, in my opinion.

I have a family. I have grandchildren. I have a spouse and brothers and sisters. I want them to understand at some level what I endured during my service career. In some ways, through no fault of their own, they're blind to it. They weren't there, so they're never going to know it the way I know it, but this country doesn't call me a “wartime service veteran”, so my family doesn't think I am. My neighbours do not think I am.

I carry this inside me.

[Harold Davis]

May I add to that, please?

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Yes, of course, Harold.

[Harold Davis]

When we turn around and look at it, we went over there and our families sat at at home, and they turned around and they watched that TV. Religiously, every day, they watched it. My wife did....

I have to stop.

[Mike McGlennon]

I recall—

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Harold.

[Mike McGlennon]

—telling my mother before I left that if I didn't come home, to please accept it: “I'm going overseas and doing my duty and proud to do it.”

I cared about the people I was serving next to on my left and my right, and I really did not know what was going to happen. It was the largest deployment of military might in the world after the Second World War. We all thought that it was going to last a long time, and I know that Canada was extremely worried about the potential casualties that could be incurred during that period, but it fooled us all.

Through great leadership and a bit of luck, it turned out to be a lot less than we all thought, but I was scared, you know. I didn't know what was going to happen. I was attacked with ballistic missiles, something that no other military service person since has had to endure.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

I so admire the work that you guys have been doing in your advocacy.

As my next question, I'm wondering if you've had a chance to meet with either the defence minister or the veterans minister, and what the response was if you did.

[Harold Davis]

I have reached out to their offices on many different occasions, and there's been nothing. I've also reached out to the CDS's office on a few different occasions, and I was told by the previous CDS office that he has a busy schedule and he doesn't have time.

When you turn around and look at that.... I have a veteran who is getting his Gulf and Kuwait medal and bar 33 years later. I reached out to the CDS office for a campaign medal to be given, because there are not a lot of them out there with the bar. I was told that he was too busy and “you could give it to him”.

I'm sorry, but I took that as an insult.