Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You have 30 seconds.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

All I need is 30 seconds.

I would just mention, sirs, that there are two individuals in this room right now who, over this course of this government, have served as parliamentary secretaries for National Defence, and I would encourage you to reach out to them to make sure that we take care of this now.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

I'm going to invite Mr. Randeep Sarai to take his five minutes, please.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our vets, who have given a lot for this country in times of war.

The Gulf War was a massive international undertaking, with over a million members of the coalition working together. As part of that coalition, Canada's forces helped liberate Kuwait from the Iraqi forces.

On the topic of cohesion and collaboration, I'm wondering if there are similar groups like yours formed in other nations in the coalition, and if your organization keeps in communication with them to see how they have been recognized or what they are doing in their neck of the woods for the same thing.

[Harold Davis]

With regard to other countries, I mostly deal with the United States. They had the biggest contingency of personnel there. They're building a monument there, which Veterans Affairs has actually donated money to on behalf of Canada, on the Persian Gulf, to help build it, but they don't have the same problems that we have here, and neither do the other countries. They're not fighting their country for the recognition. They've already been recognized.

We're fighting our own country for recognition, and they support me, because they've just said, “Go get 'em, Harold.”

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

You're saying that they haven't had the same challenge in designation in their neck of the woods, whether it's the U.S. or any of your other counterparts.

Go ahead, Mike.

[Mike McGlennon]

The lack of an existing post-deployment or post-conflict process leaves us in the situation that we're in today after 33 years, still walking the walk, whereas our Five Eyes coalition partners that we have relationships with have established veterans organizations. They've been granted wartime service status by their countries in a more timely manner. I'm not an expert, but they certainly haven't had to wait 33 years. Within one year or two years, they were reclassified by their countries.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Thank you.

My understanding is that representatives from DND and Veterans Affairs will appear before our committee next week as part of the study.

For each one of you, if you were sitting in one of these chairs as members of Parliament, what are the one or two questions you'd like us to ask them as officials?

[Mike McGlennon]

I really want to see National Defence's policies.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Okay.

[Mike McGlennon]

You're all parliamentarians here. You and your peers and the incumbents in whatever government was in place have been dealing with National Defence and that office of National Defence since 1950, but the absence of a policy.... I'm using that term carefully, because maybe they'll pull something out that was written in 1890 that I haven't been able to find, but I strongly believe that it doesn't exist. We're here having a study that wouldn't be necessary if a policy existed.

I want to see the policy. You guys need to see the policy.

Thank you.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Is there anything else, Mr. Davis?

[Harold Davis]

We have looked and looked, but if you can't find the policy, then how are you supposed to make decisions on how things go and where they're going to go? You can't do it.

If DND has the policy, well, then, it should be readily available to the public, to the taxpayers, and to you guys to help you make your decisions as to what's going on and to help you tell me the direction for how we are going to go or how we are able to argue the policy or not.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

While there were no deaths from enemy action, many of the Canadian veterans were left with lasting effects of PTSD and other significant long-term health issues as a result of the mission. Is this something that you hear from Persian Gulf veterans whom you interact with and engage with?

[Harold Davis]

We've heard that a lot.

I'm going to tell you that we never had any casualties in the Persian Gulf, but we've had casualties since the Persian Gulf because of the Persian Gulf and because of what we were exposed to. Plain and simple, we have people in the memorial book downstairs, but we had to fight to get them in that book, just so you know. They didn't automatically go in it. That's where our casualties come from.

Now we have veterans out there who can't explain some of the illnesses they have; I have some, but nobody can tell me where it came from or what it is. God knows what it's going to do to me and what it's doing to other veterans out there.

No, we didn't lose anybody in the war, but you don't have to lose somebody in a war for them to be classified as a war veteran.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

No, I'm not implying that at all. I'm asking if there were long-term health effects or if you've heard from others, which you said you have.

From decades of service and your vast experience, would you say there's a lot of adjustment to going from working and living in a wartime mentality in the military to a peacetime mentality, and can you share some of those adjustments?

[Mike McGlennon]

Thanks for that question.

There is definitely.... On each deployment—and I had five of them, both wartime and non-wartime—there's a significant amount of personal investment and effort that goes into each of these missions when a soldier goes. There's pre-deployment training that goes on for months for five days a week. It's hard, for 10 hours a day. Then, when you get overseas, your only job is to eat, sleep and work. I'm pulling 15-hour or 18-hour days for six months, so when I get back on that plane to go home, I'm done, and it takes a while to recover.

Depending on what you are exposed to as a soldier, because we have a variety of different missions, there is a decompression period, a serious decompression period, required for some soldiers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

We're going to have four more MPs intervene.

Next we have Luc Desilets.

Mr. Desilets, you have two and a half minutes. Go ahead.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Davis, I have a basic question for you, one I or someone else should have perhaps asked you at the outset.

In your view, what was the mandate of Canada's mission in the Persian Gulf War?

[Harold Davis]

That's a very good question, and you're going to have to ask Commodore Summers that question because he was the commander over there.

Again, I'm not in a position that I can answer what our mission was over there. All I know is that I fixed the plane and the plane flew and the plane came back. He's on the witness list here. He's the one this question should be directed to, sir, because he would have the answer. He did all the talking.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

All right. Thank you.

You clearly said earlier that there needs to be a documented clear policy, and I completely agree.

What should the policy include? In simple terms, what would you like to see in the policy?

[Mike McGlennon]

There is a pseudoprocess in place that already exists within National Defence, and it's specific to something called a “battle honour”. A battle honour is a public recognition of a significant service event for a unit. There's an internal process involved. Units don't have to ask for it; it's automatic, following a conflict. A review is done internally within National Defence using criteria I don't know.

However, there is a criteria list. Recommendations are made to the chief of the defence staff to award a battle honour, if applicable, to a unit. One of the criteria is “active participation in battle against a formed and armed enemy”.

We received battle honours in November 1993. Why didn't National Defence reclassify us as wartime service veterans in 1993? The Governor General gave us a medal with a bar. The bar meant we actively participated during the hostilities. These things were done. Why didn't National Defence roll us over? It's because there is no process.

If you have a process to create a battle honour, awarding one would automatically flip you over. The reason I say this is that the only recipients of battle honours are wartime service veterans, with two exceptions: the Persian Gulf and Afghanistan.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. McGlennon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

We now go to Ms. Blaney for two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, Ms. Blaney.