Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 21st, 2024

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

That leads to my next question.

During your opening statement, you mentioned asking Veterans Affairs to change this. Are you aware that the Minister of National Defence can do this without our committee and without a vote within the House? If so, what do you think the holdup is?

[RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers]

That's a loaded question, isn't it?

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

You've faced gunfire. You've already talked about Scud missiles.

[RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers]

I haven't talked to parliamentarians recently—at least, not the ones in the House. The Senate, rightly, can look at things, make some judgments and pass on its observations. That goes to the House as well. Eventually, the House has to do something about it. The ministers have to do something about it.

I hope what will come out of this committee is the recognition that this was a war and this was wartime service. I hope that this message is passed over to the minister and the House and that they take appropriate action to rectify what has maybe been a disservice.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

The organizations and the people who have served have been coming and advocating since 2017. This is something that's coming up to almost 10 years in the making.

I think there is a very simple solution to what seems to be a convoluted situation. What we see and what we recognize as war, from your perspective, don't seem to be lining up. It's policy not matching what our priority should be, as a committee, to recognize the service you've gone through.

I have just a couple more minutes.

I find you very engaging. Being an ex-air force guy—

[RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers]

We talk with our hands.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Yes, we do.

I thank you for recognizing the service of all services that were involved.

What do you see as the differences between what went on in Korea, which is being recognized, and what went on in the Gulf War?

[RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers]

My dad went to the Korean War. Again, that was something. The ships went over there after a UN resolution, not unlike what we did. Quite honestly, I don't know why that was seen as a war but what we did in replying to a UN resolution is not seen as a war. That does not make sense to me. I think they're one and the same.

Again, I'll go back to what I said initially. There are the classic wars, if you want to call them that, because that's what they were—infantry against infantry and that sort of stuff, like the Second World War, the First World War and the Korean War—and there's what we're doing now, which is far more technology-oriented. All we have to do is look at what's happening in Ukraine and Russia. They're not sending soldiers back and forth quite so much; they're sending drones. Technology has taken over. It is a different kind of warfare that's going on now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Tolmie.

Now let's go to Mr. Sean Casey for six minutes, please.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to start with Vice-Admiral Miller.

Vice-Admiral Miller, I also had the honour of serving with your friend Peter Stoffer. There aren't many people who could completely fill out the profile of a gentleman and a character around this place as Peter Stoffer could. My friend Charlie Angus will probably attest to that. I actually served with him on this committee in 2011 and 2012. I would say his story of being the founder of the veterans affairs committee is probably not far off, so good on you for seeking advice from him on coming here. I have a great deal of respect for Peter Stoffer.

On the Veterans Affairs website, there's a piece about you. One of the things you said in that piece was that the Gulf War “was probably the most successful naval and naval air deployment in Canada’s history.” Can you expand a bit on that, please?

[VAdm (Ret'd) Duncan Miller]

We went to the war as a Canadian task group. As Admiral Summers said, the interdiction was entirely successful. With 5% of the ships there, we did 25% of the boarding, with the aircraft. The seeking aircraft would challenge merchant ships, and we boarded the merchant ships. Then we moved into the central gulf area, where we were asked to coordinate the logistics efforts and the protection of the four United States aircraft carriers. My job was to assign the anti-air warfare escorts for those carriers. My job was also to assign escorts for all the shipping that came in through the Strait of Hormuz and to stop those that were sending ammunition to Iraq.

Our job was to pull out the USS Princeton, which had almost lost its fantail, from a minefield. There were injuries. We took that ship out of the minefield. If you can, imagine a ship being totally silent for 48 hours, with the crew wearing socks, wondering if we were going to hit a mine, knowing we had the best anti-mine sonar, we had the helicopter going overhead and we had the tug behind us that was eventually secured to the USS Princeton. She towed the Princeton down to Bahrain. We had to go there because we couldn't get to Dubai since the ship was damaged so heavily. Then we went off Kuwait City, again through minefields, to protect the hospital ship from missiles. That all happened.

I can tell you there was a sense of satisfaction with this naval operation, which had many facets to it, with live ammunition and watching on CNN every day the Tomahawk missiles going into Baghdad that were fired from the cruisers and the U.S. ships in the gulf. It was, indeed, a war.

We were there. We were right in the whole thing. We were right underneath it all and working it. Part of my job was to ensure that all of the ships there were refuelled and reammunitioned. We set up a grid system with the names of the provinces of Canada on one side and numbers 1 to 12 on the other side, so that every ship that came into “Manitoba 3” would know it was being controlled by a Canadian group. As Admiral Summers said, what else are you going to do during a war? You have a task group of personnel there who can organize all of this.

Having painted that picture, that was the most successful naval operation and naval air operation. It was remarkable. The CF-18s provided cover for us. Sometimes they asked us to—

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you. I'm really sorry to cut you off. I have only one minute left, and I want to get a question in for Rear-Admiral Summers.

Sir, did the Gulf War lead to any significant changes in Canadian military policy or at Veterans Affairs? Given the view you had of all aspects of it, I wonder if you could tell me whether there was a lasting impact and if you could identify it.

[RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers]

The bottom line, sir, is that I don't know what was done or if there were any changes. It all happened and we all came back home, thankfully, and got on with our lives. I'm not aware—perhaps I should be aware—of whether there were any changes made to Veterans Affairs and how they were made. All I know is that today, we're in a situation where I can't understand why it was not done, as opposed to what was actually done.

I have to go back to one quick point, if I may. I'm taking up your time, sir, but I went to the American admiral on the carriers there, and we had our squadron of Dusty and his team out there. When I talked to the American commander, he said, “One thing I can't get my head around is how we're going to keep all these guys supplied, rearmed, reprovisioned and fuelled.” I said, “Well, I have someone on staff who has been doing this for a while and knows all the players here. Let me give him the responsibility.” The answer came back, “Yes, okay.” Dusty was the only non-U.S. commander in the gulf during the Gulf War. That, to me, is a testament to the professionalism and the capability of our people.

I'm sorry. That was beyond your question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much.

We'll now give the floor to Mr. Luc Desilets for six minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening, colleagues.

I want to thank our two witnesses for appearing and I thank them for their military service.

Mr. Summers, when does a government appoint or form a war cabinet?

[RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers]

It was shortly thereafter that they formed this war cabinet. This has been done before, in the Korean War, I'm sure, but in this case, because there were so many aspects involved.... It's an all-government affair when we do that. Think about it. All the ministers have a role to play, but by doing that, it also brings the decision-makers together, the key decision-makers, so that when an issue comes up.... In this case, it could have been on going for the sweep and escort, going above that certain line in the gulf. In fact, the best example would have been the sweep and escort.

I'm sure you don't know what a sweep and escort is. Neither did the members of the war cabinet at the time, so when I saw that this was going to happen, I talked to the people in Ottawa. They went to the war cabinet and said, “Gentlemen, they're potentially going to ask us to do sweep and escort. Here's what 'sweep' is. Here's what 'escort' is.” After it was explained to them, they understood it and they gave permission, or delegated authority, to the chief of the defence staff, saying, “We understand what you're talking about and when in fact they ask for that, you have the authority to tell them you can do it.”

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I understand clearly what you're saying, but when does it form a war cabinet? Is it when it feels that Canada is potentially at war or that it'll be asked to participate in a war?

[RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers]

If I understand your question correctly, the war cabinet was formed after the war began. I think that it was a few days after January 15 or 16, but I don't know exactly.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Wonderful. Your French is excellent.

What was your reaction to what the deputy minister said here a few weeks ago? She said that the Gulf War was a war, but that Canada itself was not at war.

[RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers]

When you go back to the debates that were going on, it is quite clear, as I said, that on the 15th they were still debating in Parliament whether we should even be in the gulf. In fact, some of the parties.... One party in particular was opposed to being in the gulf, point-blank, but they had to grapple with that question, and it was a fait accompli. Again, being a member of the United Nations and having been very vocal and strong in establishing the resolutions, part of that, if the resolution is not abided by, is that there is an implicit requirement to enforce the resolution by force.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

In your opinion, was Canada at war?

[RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers]

Could you repeat the question?

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

In your opinion, was Canada at war?

[RAdm (Ret'd) Ken Summers]

Yes, of course, without a doubt.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Fine. Thank you.

How do you explain the fact that, here, nearly all the witnesses have the same interpretation as you, that Canada was at war and that there are consequences to that? In your opinion, is the financial impact the only reason why the Canadian government refuses to recognize it as a war?