Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 18th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call the meeting back to order.

I would remind you that our study is about the experience of indigenous veterans and Black veterans.

For the second part of the meeting, we have two groups of witnesses.

First of all, from Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones, we have Randi Gage, Manitoba chapter, chair of the united veterans of Manitoba.

We have Wendy-Anne Jocko, indigenous liaison, Innovation 7, by video conference. She was with us there in the first hour.

From the Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research, we have Nicholas Held, assistant scientific director, and retired Major Paul Hook, managing director.

Welcome to our meeting.

Each group will have five minutes for their opening statement. After that there will be some questions from the members.

I'd like to start with the Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones.

Ms. Randi Gage, you have five minutes for opening remarks, please.

[Randi Gage, Manitoba Chapter, Chair of Unified Veterans of Manitoba, Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones]

I'm claiming six minutes because I want to say something that I want you to listen to very carefully: Stop using “BIPOC”. The community does not want that used. Just stop.

I'm moving on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Could you repeat it, please?

[Randi Gage]

Could I do it again?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Yes.

[Randi Gage]

It's about “BIPOC”—Black, indigenous, people of colour. Stop using that terminology. The communities do not want it. It separates us. It's divisive. It is another way in which the government can say, “Oh, we've already done that for them.” Well, we're not all “them”.

I'm indigenous. I'm also black. Huh? That's another story. It's very divisive, so just stop.

Now, are you ready for the other part?

Boozhoo Migizi-ikwe indegneecas, ogichidaawikwe, mong doodem.

I bring greetings to this gathering located on the traditional, unceded, unsurrendered territories of the Anishinabe and Algonquin peoples from Treaty 1 territories located on the ancestral lands of the Anishinabe, Oji-Cree, Dakota, Dene, Cree and Inuit nations and the homeland of the Red River Métis from Manitoba.

With respect to the spirit and intent of the treaties and the treaty-making process, I remain committed to working in partnership with new arrivals to our lands in the spirit of truth, reconciliation and collaboration. The topics I chose to speak to you about today are physical health, mental health, some safety concerns and sexual trauma during service.

Female health is at the top of the list, as is the lack of proper accommodations for personal needs. It is painfully evident that those in command do not understand the personal needs of their female soldiers. During field operations, not being allowed a simple blanket to shield a female soldier while using the toilet is seen as a sign of disrespect and harassment, and the female requesting such is usually tormented and picked on.

There is a lack of understanding of the extended wear of a personal hygiene product and how dangerous that is. Further to the lack of accommodations is the lack of understanding of the dangers for the female soldier. We're not allowed to change personal hygiene products. Prolonged wear of such items can result in toxic shock, which is clearly stated on the Tampax box itself, which gives the instructions, “Don't wear this longer than eight hours”.

I've had several female soldiers who have been deployed into rural areas or into active combat areas who have had locals come to them who were scared because they noticed the stain on their pants and thought they'd been hit by a bullet or a ricochet or something, so this is something that needs to be addressed. It needs to be looked at. The harassment that women go through during that time of the month should not be happening.

The lack of recognition of the health needs of the mature females in the forces is clearly documented. Around the time of menopause, many females experience physical symptoms, such as hot flashes and night sweats, which are normal things that we all have to go through, and there's nothing you can do about it. However, the impact on the person's quality of life and the range of this stuff becomes very severe. It can be from mild to severe. It starts perhaps in the 30s, and it's inevitable.

Now, not to let you guys off easy, but you also go through something, and it's not being recognized either. It's called andropause. You might know it as the “little red convertible syndrome”.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Randi Gage]

These are real things that happen to your body, and Canadian Forces does not recognize them in men or women, but women have a worse time of it because we have to do things that you don't have to do. Something as simple as a bucket in the corner with a blanket to show a little bit of respect would go a long way to help the ladies. These things impact mental health as well.

Now, I'm going to say something here that may ruffle a couple of feathers, but you know what? I don't care. Having presentations from misogynistic, racist and divisive civilians and veterans causes great confusion to this committee and to the government at large.

First of all, I am not going to tell you the name, but if you ask me a specific name, I will say yes or no to it. When people who do not represent indigenous soldiers or indigenous veterans are presenting at any of the committees and are questioning reputations, there's a ripple effect that goes out into the community, and it's a very hurtful thing.

Yes, I see your sign, and it's not going to work.

It's something that you need to think about and know who you're asking questions of. Harassment, racism, hazing, general mental health and abuse—I'll send you some of that stuff, because I have with me two documents of people who have lived through it.

As for the lack of acknowledgement and understanding of access to the supports that various indigenous peoples need for traditional ceremonies and things like that, such as not allowing us to go to a ceremony or saying "You can't use that" because you have to have a piece of paper that says you're from Queen's University or McGill University or whatever, I have news for you: Our elders, our people who actually know these things, know the herbs, and they know what happened. I have two legs that I'm walking around on today because I said no to mainstream medicine and went to an herbalist, and I'm alive.

Regarding safety concerns, there's a whole raft of things here, like sexual trauma. I think I'll just send this to you and scare you with it, because that way it gives me more time to expand on it.

In closing, this document here has recommendations. This was presented here 32 years ago by me. Of these recommendations, number one is the only one that's been addressed. This was reported 32 years ago, 27 years ago, 12 years ago and seven years ago.

Okay, guys; let's get busy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Ms. Randi Gage.

Colleagues, the clerk told me that each witness would like to say a few words, and I know that one of our colleagues would like to leave around 5:30 or 5:45, so I'm going to let them share maybe five minutes.

Now I'm going to ask Chief Wendy-Anne Jocko, indigenous liaison from Innovation 7, to take a few minutes for her opening statement, because this is a different organization.

[Chief Wendy-Anne Jocko, Indigenous Liaison, Innovation Seven, Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones]

Thank you very much, Chair, but I would actually like to rectify my title page, because I sit on the Assembly of First Nations Veterans Council and I'm the interim vice-president for Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones. When I filled in the sheet, that's the company I work for. It has nothing to do with veterans, although the owner of the company is indeed a veteran.

I just want to thank the committee for inviting me here today to share a few things. I have written down 10 points that I would like to share with you.

Just to let you know, and you probably already know, indigenous veterans played a crucial role in Canada's military history, serving with distinction in various conflicts. However, they have faced and continue to face unique challenges that require attention and action, so I have a brief overview to highlight these issues for presentation to your committee.

Number one is historical context and recognition. Indigenous people participated in every major battle and peacekeeping mission involving Canada, from the War of 1812 to modern-day operations. Despite their significant contributions, these veterans have often been overlooked in historical narratives and official recognition.

As for the lack of formal acknowledgement, as we know, for many years the contributions of indigenous veterans were not adequately recognized in official histories or commemorations, and this could be for a few reasons. I did hear somebody earlier say that the word “indigenous” does include first nation, Inuit and Métis people, but we also forget about the status and the non-status first nation people. Many indigenous people were enfranchised when they joined the army, and, unfortunately, there still are many people who are trying to find their way home and gain their status. There has been delayed access to benefits. Many indigenous veterans were initially denied access to the same benefits and supportive services offered to non-indigenous veterans upon their return from service, which, of course, had a collateral effect on their families, to this very day as well.

Point number two is that there are cultural and social challenges. Indigenous veterans have faced unique cultural and social challenges, both during and after their military service. There's a cultural disconnect. Military service often requires indigenous soldiers to leave their communities, leading to a disconnection from their cultural practices and languages. Many indigenous veterans experience discrimination, both within the military and upon their return to civilian life, and this still holds true today, as we heard. The transition back to civilian life has been particularly challenging for indigenous veterans, especially those returning to remote or isolated communities.

Point number three is that there are health and wellness issues. Indigenous vets face specific health and wellness challenges that require targeted support and intervention. Indigenous veterans may experience PTSD at a higher rate because of the compounded effects of military trauma and historical trauma related to colonization. Many indigenous veterans struggle to access health care services that are both culturally sensitive and equipped to address their unique needs. Higher rates of substance abuse have been reported among indigenous veterans, often linked to PTSD and difficulties in reintegration.

Point number four is that there are economic and employment challenges. Indigenous veterans often face significant economic and employment challenges upon return to civilian life. Many indigenous veterans return to communities with limited economic opportunities, making it difficult to secure stable employment. There can be challenges in translating military skills to civilian job markets, particularly in indigenous communities. Some indigenous veterans may lack access to education and training programs that could help them transition to civilian careers.

Point number five is housing and infrastructure issues. Adequate housing and infrastructure remain significant concerns for many indigenous veterans. Indigenous veterans are at a higher risk of homelessness compared to the general veteran population. Many indigenous veterans return to communities with inadequate housing conditions. Remote and isolated communities often lack the necessary support services for veterans.

Point number six relates to the intergenerational impact. The challenges faced by indigenous veterans often have far-reaching effects on their families and communities. The effects of military service-related trauma can be passed down to subsequent generations. Extended periods of service and difficulties in reintegration can lead to family breakdowns and social issues within communities.

Point number seven relates to ongoing efforts and future direction. While progress has been made in addressing these issues, there is still much work to be done. On policy reform, continued efforts are needed to reform policies to better address the unique needs of indigenous veterans. Increasing cultural competency within veteran support services is crucial for providing effective assistance, as is developing and supporting community-based programs that integrate traditional healing practices with modern support services. We need more comprehensive research and data collection to fully understand and address the challenges faced by indigenous veterans.

Point number eight relates to the sexual trauma and challenges faced by indigenous soldiers. Indigenous soldiers, both male and female, have faced significant challenges during their military service, including experiences of sexual trauma and difficulties related to participation in foreign missions. These issues are compounded by historical trauma and ongoing systemic barriers. Indigenous soldiers have reported higher rates of sexual trauma compared with non-indigenous counterparts. It includes sexual harassment and assault within military ranks, under-reporting due to fear of reprisal or lack of culturally appropriate support, and intersectional discrimination based on both indigenous identity and gender.

Point number nine relates to challenges in foreign missions. Indigenous soldiers may encounter unique difficulties when called to participate in foreign missions. These include cultural disconnection from traditional lands and practices; language barriers, especially for those whose first language is indigenous; conflict between military duties and indigenous values or beliefs; and limited access to culturally appropriate mental health support during deployment.

Point number 10 relates to Veterans Affairs Canada programs and supports. VAC has developed some programs to address the needs of indigenous veterans, including those who have experienced sexual trauma. The aim of the indigenous veterans initiative is to recognize and commemorate indigenous veterans. There is cultural competency training for VAC staff to better serve indigenous veterans, and there are also partnerships with indigenous organizations to provide culturally appropriate mental health services and dedicated support for survivors of sexual trauma in the military, including specialized counselling services.

However, many indigenous veterans report that these programs are often insufficient or difficult to access, particularly in remote communities. There is an ongoing need for more comprehensive, culturally informed support services that address the unique experiences of indigenous soldiers.

It is crucial to approach these sensitive topics with respect and to prioritize the voices and experience of indigenous veterans in developing and implementing support.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mrs. Jocko—

[Chief Wendy-Anne Jocko]

I want to let you know that I myself am a 23-year veteran. I have had some positive experiences with VAC, I must say. However, that's not to be said for some people, including my son, who unfortunately passed away last year when he was only 38 years old. His story is not so good.

In conclusion, addressing the unique challenges faced by indigenous veterans requires a multi-faceted approach that acknowledges historical injustices, respects cultural differences and provides targeted support.

Meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Jocko.

Colleagues, we have the testimony of Ms. Jocko. When we have it in both official languages, you will have a copy of that as well.

We will now go to the Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research and Mr. Nicholas Held, assistant scientific director.

Please go ahead.

[Dr. Nicholas Held, Assistant Scientific Director, Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research]

Thank you. I'll make this brief. We won't go through it all. I believe you have access to it. If not, you will have access.

Good evening, Chairman and members of the committee. Thank you very much for having us here.

My name is Nicholas Held. I'm the assistant scientific director of the Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research. The acronym I'll be using is CIMVHR, just so you have that background.

Before we begin, I'd like to take this time to acknowledge that CIMVHR is situated on the territory of the Haudenosaunee and the Anishinabe, otherwise known as Kingston. We are grateful to be able to live, learn and play on these lands.

Our mission at CIMVHR is to enhance the lives of Canadian military personnel, veterans and their families by harnessing the national capacity for research. Since 2010, CIMVHR has built a network of 46 Canadian universities that have agreed to work together to address the health research requirements of the Canadian military, veterans and their families. This institute acts as a conduit between the academic community and research-funding organizations.

On behalf of funding organizations, CIMVHR distributes requests for proposals for research to researchers through its network of universities and manages all the tasks from there, through scientific peer review process to the completion of the projects.

We also publish a peer-reviewed academic journal, called the Journal of Military, Veteran and Family Health. We conduct knowledge translation of the research that's out there and we host an annual conference that involves anywhere from 600 to 1,000 people every year across Canada. Our latest one was CIMVHR Forum 2024, which recently took place in Winnipeg, Manitoba.

CIMVHR is committed to equity, diversity, inclusion and indigenization. We fully acknowledge that there has been a gap on our end institutionally on researching the two respective populations we are discussing today. In the past few years, however, we have worked towards bridging this gap to ensure that we leave nobody behind in the discourse of military and veteran health research.

Within our journal, we have mobilized important information on indigenous and Black veterans, including a complete special edition of our journal completely dedicated to these groups. It was in 2022 and was entitled “The many faces of diversity in military employment”. I won't go through all the other papers that are part of this; they will be part of a note.

The same thing goes for our annual forum. Indigenous and Black veterans, as well as other minorities in the military, such as women, are topics of discussion for a lot of presentations that take place at our forum, both at the podium and as poster presentations.

From there, I'll pass it over to Mr. Hook. We'll be able to chat about the rest of this, and it will be sent to you as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Please go ahead, Mr. Hook.

[Paul Hook, Major (Retired), Managing Director, Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning. My name is Paul Hook. I'm a veteran. I spent 25 years in the Canadian Armed Forces as an officer in the Armoured Corps.

Since my retirement last year, I have been the managing director at CIMVHR responsible for human resources, finance, outreach and strategic planning. I use my lived experience as a military dependent—I'm the fourth generation serving in the military—as a military officer and now as a veteran to work with my colleagues, such as Nicholas Held, to make sure that the research that is being put out has all the merits that are required.

Over the past year, CIMVHR, as part of its work to complete our strategic plan that takes us to 2030, has had some hard discussions. As my colleague discussed, there is a research gap. We've looked at hiring an indigenous adviser as well as a diversity adviser, both of whom we should have in January 2025. That will allow us, as we move forward with our research areas of focus, to ensure that we're meeting the needs of all of our military veterans and their families when we do research.

As a point for discussion at our annual conference, we were very happy to have Randi as well as other people from Manitoba attend our conference. There was a specific push, especially as we were in Manitoba with the Red River Métis and many other organizations there, such as the Southern Chiefs' Organization, to ensure that we had indigenous veterans and indigenous serving members at our conference, because we know and we understand that having groups at our conference, especially marginalized groups that the Minister of VAC brought up as a priority for research, makes it that much more special. We talked about how great it was and how ironic it was that six weeks ago, when I sent an email to Randi saying that she was more than welcome to come to our forum, we would be on the same panel.

Part of that discussion that my colleague talked about was the research that happens. I'll give an example of last year.

In our call for abstracts for new and emerging research, we spoke about well-being, sex, gender, EDI and intersectionality, service-related injury and illness, and mental health. One of the streams that we had in 2023, because we know there's a gap in research in Canada, had four titles. The research topics were racial disparity, female veteran homelessness, the lived experience of Black service women in the United States and using cultural safety and competency as a lens to understand BIPOC CAF members' experiences utilizing health services. The “BIPOC” was in the title, so I'm just using it there.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Paul Hook]

We do know that there's a gap, but there is research going on, and CIMVHR is committed to ensuring that we do more. We are working towards a potential targeted engagement grant through the Department of National Defence to ensure that we can have that discussion with the indigenous community for research with, by and for indigenous military members and veterans and their families.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Hook.

Now we're going to start our round of questions.

I should note that at the beginning we didn't know we would have so many witnesses. We have a limited study. Maybe members of the committee will re-invite some of you, because we have a lot to discuss, and also ask you, as witnesses, to send us more information.

For now, I'd like to know from the members of the committee if we can have a tour of six minutes each.

The second thing is that Mr. Desilets will leave at 5:30. In cordiality, I'd ask the members if we can we start with him for six minutes and then come back with the regular tour? Is that okay?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

I therefore give the floor for six minutes to the second vice-chair of the committee, Mr. Luc Desilets.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's very kind of you.

Ms. Gage, you referred to a study that goes back 30 or 35 years; that was long before I was born. Would it be possible to send a copy to the clerk, please?

[Randi Gage]

Yes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

You lived through the Vietnam War. Would you be able to tell us about the treatment of American indigenous people compared to that of Canadian and Quebec indigenous people?

[Randi Gage]

That's a difficult one. That's not completely as bad, but it's quite bad. What happened here in Canada to indigenous veterans was wrong on so many levels.

Down there in the United States, when you were Black and you were going into the military, when you put on the uniform, you were a soldier. We didn't turn and ask if you're Black, white, green, purple or whatever. It was whether you could cover my behind. They went in and did their job like any other American soldier who went in. I don't remember having faced too many issues in the same way that indigenous soldiers up here faced. When I came to Canada a long time ago, I had never faced the amount of racism and terror down in the States that I did up here. It's comparable, but not completely compatible with it.