Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 18th, 2024

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Very well.

Mr. Hook, in your research on veterans' health, did you notice any significant differences between the health of indigenous veterans and that of non-indigenous veterans?

[Paul Hook]

As Mr. Held said, there will be a lot of research on intersectionality in the future, but there isn't really any at the moment.

There's a dearth of research. There's been research done, but never with a view to looking at the difference between white serving members, Black serving members and indigenous serving members. We know there's a gap there.

There have been maybe one or two researchers who have looked at that as a specific thing. We know, looking forward, that this needs research to be committed. That's why we have the SAGER guidelines, the sex and gender and race guidelines, within our research. It's to ensure that we're looking at those questions and that they're answered in the research.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Didn't you conduct a comparative study of different countries—including New Zealand, if I'm not mistaken—on the treatment and health of indigenous veterans compared to the situation of non-indigenous veterans?

[Paul Hook]

I'll have to refer to my colleague on the research side, as he's the expert on research.

[Dr. Nicholas Held]

Thank you.

The countries you're naming would make sense within the Five Eyes, and New Zealand would be a part of that. I'm not discrediting what your statement is, and there's probably research on that.

An important thing for us to note at CIMVHR is that we don't do internal research; we facilitate and mobilize fund research. We work with researchers, but there wouldn't be any in-house research by CIMVHR that worked on this.

I'm not exactly sure of the piece you're looking at. I will look into that, but I'm not exactly aware of the piece you're speaking to.

[Paul Hook]

Was that Grazia Scoppio's study? I know that a few researchers at the Royal Military College of Canada have done research on indigenous people in Australia and New Zealand.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

It could be related to that study. I'm unable to cite the exact source.

That could be an interesting element. We do a lot of work internally, we determine what the issues are for indigenous people here, but we mustn't forget that there are indigenous people everywhere on the planet. Can we compare ourselves? The idea is not to compare ourselves to say that we're not as good. It's more a matter of comparing ourselves to see what is done differently elsewhere and what works better.

So you don't have a study in mind to compare our situation to that of other countries. Is that right?

[Paul Hook]

Not at the moment, but we have discussed that topic with our colleagues in Australia for 2025. We're talking about international research with countries like Australia, Canada and England.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Based on the discussions you're having, do you think we're on the right track when it comes to dealing with the particular experiences of indigenous veterans?

[Paul Hook]

We have lots of room. There's a start.

As I said before, it's my second year at the institute. My colleagues and I are in the process of improving our research. For example, we're going to hire an indigenous adviser and a Black adviser so that the research we're doing better reflects those populations.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

We will now go back to the first vice-chair of the committee, Mr. Blake Richards.

I'm sorry. It's Mr. Fraser Tolmie for six minutes, please.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Any time you want me to take over, just let me know. I told you earlier.

Thank you to our witnesses for joining us today. We truly are grateful. To those who have served, we are very grateful.

Ms. Jocko, I'm so touched and sorry to hear about the passing of your son. Obviously it's very close to home, and it's been very recent. I want to thank you for sharing that with us and for being open. Our hearts go out to you.

I have a couple questions that I'd like to go through. Obviously, this study is very important to our committee. What we're looking for are the experiences of indigenous and Black people who have served in the Canadian military. We would like to see, from our committee's standpoint, how we can help them and how we can ensure that they're getting proper care and treatment.

My first question will go to Ms. Jocko.

You were sitting there for quite a while during the previous testimony. What are your encounters with VAC? You said that you've had an okay engagement, but then you've heard other horror stories. Could you share a little about what you've experienced from your perspective?

I'd then like to ask a couple of questions to those who are present here.

[Chief Wendy-Anne Jocko]

Thank you very much.

I'd say that I have had an okay experience with VAC. That's not to say that I've had an okay experience with being in the military and with my subsequent release.

With any issue that I encountered when I made the application to VAC, I always went through the Legion headquarters in Ottawa, so I always had an advocate. It seems to me that if you have an advocate, VAC seems to take your situation a little more seriously. There are other veterans I know of, indigenous and non-indigenous, who have tried to do things themselves and have come up against certain obstacles.

Just to let you know, the downside of my experience was in connection with my son, an indigenous man. We reached out to Veterans Affairs for help with his mental health issues at the time, and I had absolutely zero help there, which was very unfortunate. VAC knows his story. That's for sure.

When it came time for me to get some support myself—

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I'm sorry. I don't mean to interrupt you.

Do you think that if he'd had better service, it would have helped him? Is that something that is a part of this?

[Chief Wendy-Anne Jocko]

Yes, I believe so, because the VAC agent who answered the phone when I reached out for help didn't really have a grasp of the policies and procedures available for a situation like that. We were swept under the carpet. Of course, the eventuality was his death.

I needed help myself. This is where I didn't have a good experience. I needed aftercare, counselling and bereavement support. I was put in touch—I can't remember what program it was—with a peer. However, it was not a peer. A civilian woman called me, not a veteran and not even a currently serving member of the forces. To me, that is not a peer. On top of that—and I apologize—she was not indigenous. When you're in a situation like that, you don't want to have to start, at the point of contact, explaining what happened to you along the way. She had no clue about military service. She had no clue about being an indigenous person.

The point I'm trying to make is that the Assembly of First Nations and Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones have advocated for a peer support service that could be indigenous veterans helping indigenous veterans. This was brought out in Saskatchewan. It is called the Burns Way. You may have heard the horrible story of the James Smith Cree massacre, where veteran Earl Burns was killed. There was a program called the Burns Way made in his honour. It's an online application that puts you directly in touch with an indigenous veteran in 24 hours.

I didn't even care if it was a male veteran who phoned me, as long as it was an indigenous veteran.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

You were looking for someone who could relate to the experience and to your culture, and that was not provided. That is one of the reasons we asked this question in the first round: How many indigenous and Black employees are at Veterans Affairs, and how many have served?

Thank you very much. I wish we had more time. I am so sorry, but I wanted to reach out because you have been very gracious to sit here and participate.

I'm afraid to ask Ms. Gage any questions. I have to ask a couple, though.

You said you moved to Canada, so you're not originally from here. Is that correct?

[Randi Gage]

That's right.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

When did you move to Canada?

[Randi Gage]

Shame on you. That will tell you how old I am.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

You don't know what else I'll ask later on.

[Randi Gage]

I was an infant. I moved here about 40 years ago.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

You served in the U.S. military.

Did you serve in the Canadian military?

[Randi Gage]

No, I did not, but I have done a lot of work with the veterans over time. I'm the founder of Indigenous Veterans Day.