Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 18th, 2024

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Although you don't have the figures, do you think you have a sufficient proportion of case managers who are indigenous or Black to work with indigenous and Black people who do indeed have very specific issues?

[Nathalie Pham]

As you know, when it comes to recruitment, case management is a specialization that we look for among our workforce's members. As to whether we have enough indigenous case managers or Black case managers, I would say that it's always beneficial to have more. That said, if a veteran wants their file to be processed by an indigenous or Black case manager, we can find a person in their community with whom they can identify.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

When you post these positions, are there any specific criteria set out in them? For example, do you indicate that preference is given to indigenous or Black candidates?

[Nathalie Pham]

Yes, absolutely. We put up targeted postings. We make it clear that we're looking for people from employment equity groups, and indigenous and Black people are among those.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Ms. Pham, two or three weeks ago, we heard from an indigenous veteran who gave us appallingly disturbing testimony. He said he applied five times before his application was accepted—after many, many years.

Do such cases occur often, in your opinion?

[Nathalie Pham]

With respect to the case you mentioned, I don't have the file in front of me, so I can't comment on it.

However, depending on the program and the type of application, people sometimes do have to submit several applications because we're looking for specific information. It can take several tries before we gather all the required information.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I'll give you an example and you can tell me if it's something you see often. This veteran's military file was impossible to find, among other things. That's something fairly basic, after all. It was as though it didn't exist.

Does it often happen that a veteran's military file is not found when their application is processed?

[Nathalie Pham]

It's definitely a challenge when a veteran's military file doesn't exist, as in the case you're talking about. We work closely with the Department of National Defence to ensure that military members, when they leave the Canadian Armed Forces, have access to their file and that all their documents remain accessible in the department's archives.

Officials at the Department of National Defence are in a better position to answer that question. For our part, in such cases, we do research with the veteran to track down the military documents.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Pham.

Ms. Meunier, I have a quick question for you.

In 2019, the committee produced a report on indigenous veterans. Recommendation 12 is that Veterans Affairs Canada review the eligibility criteria for its programs to support the erection of memorials in order to promote the well-being of communities.

Were those two things done, in your opinion?

[Amy Meunier]

Yes, absolutely. As I said before, we changed our program in 2021.

In order to ensure that there were dedicated funds for indigenous communities, we increased the amount that they would be eligible for. As I mentioned, a significant number of indigenous communities—

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

There was talk of a monument at the time. You were the one who alluded to it in 2018.

[Amy Meunier]

It's up to the communities.

They can have money for a ceremony or a cenotaph.

That is a choice for them to make.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

Now let's go to Ms. Blaney for six minutes, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank Ms. Pham, Ms. Meunier and Mr. Pedersen for being here with us today.

I will ask questions and I am happy to hear from whoever is the best person to answer those questions.

We had testimony not long ago from the Veterans Association Food Bank about some very concerning language that was extremely racist. We heard from Ms. Blackburn that she heard from workers at VAC that they didn't want to give money directly to indigenous veterans because they were worried that they would drink it up. I found that really concerning.

I want to understand better what the capacity is of organizations that are working to support veterans to bring forward a complaint.

I think this is a huge concern. We heard very clearly that indigenous veterans—and I would say probably veterans from the Black community and veterans who are people of colour—often feel afraid to come forward because they think they're going to lose their benefits by voicing what they see happening to them. Service providers often don't have the ability to advocate without putting forward a name.

I'm wondering what the process is for bringing forward these kinds of complaints. How can service providers bring forward those complaints without naming a veteran, to protect that veteran? How do we make sure that something like this doesn't happen again?

I want to be really clear: I believe her, 100%. I've heard this so many times. It's a very unfortunate stereotype. It resides in Canadians, and it's not every person, but it doesn't matter, because every time a veteran asks for services and is told that they can't access them because of an assumption about who they are, we're really losing those supports.

I'm just wondering if the committee could learn a little bit more about that process and what that might look like.

[Amy Meunier]

I'll start by saying that I am saddened to hear that. Of course, when I heard the testimony, that's not a response that's acceptable for our department. We certainly would not condone that kind of stereotyping.

There are a number of ways for any individual—in this case, a service provider—to elevate a complaint without necessarily identifying a contact. If you're a service provider with the department, there are escalation channels that come as part and parcel of being a service provider with the department or Medavie Blue Cross. There is also going directly into the department through the national client contact network or if they happen to know an individual.

We also have area offices in many locations across the country that have relationships with those organizations. Potentially there is a direct linkage there. I do understand that in the context, that might not be the most effective route, based on what you're suggesting.

There is also the Office of the Veterans Ombud. While it's certainly in place to look at systemic issues, that would be a place. We work actively with that office.

I might look to my colleague Ms. Pham to see if she has additional information from a service delivery perspective.

[Nathalie Pham]

Thank you, Ms. Meunier.

As Ms. Meunier said, this is very unfortunate. I am saddened by what I hear. In our offices we should not have stereotypes, as you mentioned. We should not be discriminating against any of our veterans.

I know it's hard, but I encourage providers or veterans themselves to come forward—

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you. I'm sorry; I only have a couple of minutes left.

I hear that, but the frustrating part, of course, is that these systems are intrinsically built to make people who feel marginalized not feel included, not feel like they participate. As much as I hear that, there needs to be some serious work on how we make those things work more effectively.

My next question is around anti-racism training. I'm curious about the level of anti-racism training. I'm going to ask if that information can be given to the committee in terms of what level, what type of training and for what positions. I think it's really important. Often, only a few people are given that training. If it's going to be meaningful, it has to be done at all levels.

I'll go to my next question. We know that there's not enough data around indigenous and Black veterans. We know that it's also challenging on the service side. I'm curious about what's happening around collecting that data so that there can be better analysis of where people are falling through gaps.

The next part of that question is that we know that sometimes harm is done by the military while people are serving in the military. We've heard this very clearly from the BIPOC community—Black, indigenous, and people of colour—that they're harmed, not necessarily from the action of service but from internal issues. That's not documented, so how does VAC respond to that, and can you respond?

[Amy Meunier]

I might start by indicating that in 2021, as you know, there was a veteran question on the census that started to give us more specific information. We know that there are about 23,000 indigenous veterans in Canada, about 11,000 Métis, about 11,000 first nations and about 700 Innu, give or take.

Recently we had the community health needs assessment. It really targeted those marginalized or under-represented voices. I'm sure that someone much more intimate with those details could provide a solid briefing to the committee about what that tells us.

That information will really help us drill down into areas where there may be barriers we're not seeing through conversation and engagement. It'll be a little more precise in that regard.

In terms of discrimination or poor treatment that somebody may have experienced in the military or in society, it's difficult to change what they've experienced, but we're certainly well aware, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, that when individuals who have been marginalized come to us, our staff, in particular those frontline staff, are working on being trained to be culturally sensitive and making sure that we're adapting the training. As you indicated, there is quite a fair bit of discrimination prevention training and racism prevention training that happens in the department at all levels, with a great emphasis on our frontline staff.

We can certainly provide that to you in writing, as you requested.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Meunier.

Unfortunately, that's all the time we have. As I—

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Go ahead on a point of order, Mr. Tolmie.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

My colleague Mr. Desilets came up with a very good question earlier with regard to how many Black and indigenous employees Veterans Affairs employs. The reply was that it was proportionate.

I wonder if the department could respond in writing if the proportionate numbers are those of who have served or those who are within our population numbers. We would appreciate it for the committee.

[Amy Meunier]

Absolutely. I'm just fiddling here and couldn't find it, but we can send that to you quite quickly. I apologize.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you. We know that Ms. Meunier is used to coming to our committee. Do not hesitate to send it to the clerk, and we'll share it with members.

On behalf of the committee members and myself, I want to thank the three representatives from the Department of Veterans Affairs who appeared before us for their participation: Amy Meunier, assistant deputy minister, commemoration and public affairs branch; Nathalie Pham, director general of field operations, service delivery; and Joel Pedersen, senior operations manager, indigenous veterans engagement team.

We'll take a very short break while we welcome the next witnesses.