Evidence of meeting #122 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB
In the five-plus years since you've been out of the forces, obviously you've been a veteran and would consider yourself a veteran. You are a veteran. Thank you for your service.
What has your experience been like as a veteran with Veterans Affairs or with the government? Have you experienced systemic racism as a veteran?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Excuse me.
Mr. Richards, I can give Mr. Dorval about 20 seconds more so he can answer, because your six minutes are up.
Mr. Dorval, you have about 20 seconds.
Conservative
Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB
Sure. In your five-plus years dealing with Veterans Affairs or other government departments or institutions as a veteran, have you experienced systemic racism?
Veteran, As an Individual
No, that was not the case at all. It was excellent. It was wonderful. My years of service were good, and I am happy with them.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you, Mr. Dorval.
I now give Mr. Sarai the floor for six minutes.
Liberal
Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC
Thank you.
Thank you for coming back, Mr. Dorval. Can you tell us a bit about what kind of racism and challenges you faced while serving in the military?
Veteran, As an Individual
The doors were closed to me everywhere. When I joined the army as a driver, I already had a family and I already had a car. On weekends, I was the one who drove the other soldiers around. But when we got to the base, we had to pass tests again to get a military driver's licence. Everybody passed the test except me, when I already had a car. It was really just everything.
As a result, I often lost my cool. The doors were always closed to me.
I received disciplinary sanctions. A captain told me it was not possible for me to have a record like that with so little time in the army, barely a few months. I told him it was reasonable because I didn't pass when the others passed and I often lost my cool. For example, one time, I had taken a test, and when I went to get my licence, they told me I didn't drive well enough and they didn't want to give me the licence. Instead of signing the sheet, I ripped it up and threw it in a trash can. A warrant officer who was walking by asked me what I had done. I told him it was a test paper and I had failed the test and ripped it up, because I didn't need it and I was going to take the test again. So I got a disciplinary sanction.
I took another course at Borden. I encountered the same people and the doors were closed to me again. Everybody took their test during the week, from Monday to Friday. They made me take mine at 11:00 Friday night, so I could not take it over. Then they told me I had not passed the test and they didn't have time to let me take it again, and I had to return to Valcartier. It was the same person. That is when I broke down and cried.
I filed a grievance. I think the colonels took action and removed that person.
In a nutshell, all the doors were closed to me. It was a battle.
Liberal
Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC
It's good to know that when you filed a grievance, he was removed.
Tell me about the processes. You said they've improved. Perhaps you can let us know how those processes have improved. It's bad and sad that you had to go through this and get to the point where you had to report it, but can you let us know how processes have improved and how they could be improved even further?
Veteran, As an Individual
The chain of command looked at my file, particularly in Ottawa. Someone had sent my file, which included things I had written. In Ottawa, General Alex Tremblay—I will never forget that name—came to Valcartier with a convoy of seven or eight vehicles at noon before lunch. He asked for the battalions to be assembled, for everybody to go a spot where there was a helicopter. And then he told us that he was not proud of us, that this was not why we had joined the forces, that people were working. He said it was not possible to act like that. He lost his temper at everybody.
Ordinarily, when the commanding officer or the general goes somewhere, he salutes and he starts by saying nice things. If there is something to report, he does it after that. This time, however, the general just let his anger out, and then he left. Everybody just stood there.
That happened because my file had reached Ottawa and then there were people talking about it. In spite of what happened, they kept blocking my path. Nobody in the organization talked to me anymore. I had to change my job. They told me I had won, but I couldn't stay there and I had to change camps.
I went to see the BPSOs, the base personnel selection officers, to prepare for another job. Nobody helped me, because the major was familiar with my case and it was me against them. I had to do everything for myself, to retrain for another occupation. I went back to Borden to do another job. I didn't get the guidance that all the other soldiers got when they wanted to change jobs. They got guidance to help them. I did it all on my own as a corporal and I succeeded, as usual.
A lot of things got done after Gen. Tremblay got angry, when he came directly from Ottawa and shook up all the garrisons. I think it really helped. It is impressive to see what an individual can do.
They had me take my test at midnight. I had to write a passage, and the test was out of 45 points. But they took my paper and deducted 15 points, just to play mind games with me. So I wrote the test out of 30 points. I took my test. I filled everything out and I handed it in on time. There were a lot of people who weren't able to hand it in on time and passed, but not me. They told me the next day, a Saturday, that I would not have time to take it because they were leaving. They sent me back to Valcartier. I cried the whole drive.
I have never told my family anything before today. I filed grievances and I won but nobody knew. I am only saying it now.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you, Mr. Dorval.
Mr. Dorval, two more members will be speaking. Mr. Champoux will have six minutes to ask you questions.
Mr. Champoux, the floor is yours.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for being with us today, Mr. Dorval.
You served in the Canadian Armed Forces for 19 years. You left in 2019.
Is that right?
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
You were transferred, and you finished your service at Longue-Pointe Garrison in Montreal.
Is that correct?
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
What did you do? You said you were a driver. What division were you in, exactly?
Veteran, As an Individual
I was part of 5 Service Battalion in Valcartier. After that, I worked as a soldier-technician, and that was when I returned to Montreal, after my courses.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
Mr. Dorval, I want to thank you for being with us today to share your story with us. I have found it very interesting.
You use colourful language. I wasn't listening to the English interpretation, but when you said a few times that you had "pété les plombs", I was curious to know how the interpreters had translated that for our anglophone colleagues. I appreciate your giving us your unfiltered thoughts, Mr. Dorval.
You talked about your difficult experience over the years, and you told us a few things that struck me, particularly the fact that you felt a weight lift when you got to Montreal.
Was that a cultural thing? Was it simply because you had changed settings, a setting that was maybe extremely oppressive for you because of the circumstances? What was it that made you feel like a weight had lifted when you got to Montreal?
Veteran, As an Individual
In Montreal, things were simpler, not just for Corporal Dorval, but also for a Black person who arrives there whether they be a captain or anything else. After two or three months, I had to get out of there.
In Montreal, the approach is different, and it was also not the same mindset. It may be because there are a lot of Black people in this urban area, I don't know. Most of the people are civilians.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
You identified more with the mindset or how you felt in an environment like Montreal.
Is that it?
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
Right.
I imagine that was kind of what you were referring to, when you said you were a space alien. The reason you felt like you were not in your element at that time was precisely because you felt uprooted.
Have I understood correctly?
Veteran, As an Individual
No, it's not because I was uprooted, it's because they treated me differently. I didn't go through the same doors as the others. When I got there, they just plain kept me apart.
I was a driver. When the people in charge assigned jobs, to drive a 16‑tonne truck, for example, they always sent two people. But when I was the one they assigned the job to, it was always just me doing it, when that same job called for there to be two people.
I did my job well, when and where required, but I was always by myself. I never had another team member when I did my jobs.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
Right.
That is pretty significant.
Mr. Dorval, in the answers you gave to the questions asked earlier by my colleagues, I heard you talk about the difficulties you experienced during your career while you were in the service.
You also said that since you left the Canadian Armed Forces, you have been satisfied with the services you are receiving from Veterans Affairs Canada.
Is that what you said?
Veteran, As an Individual
That's right.
There are no arguments. I can't complain.