Evidence of meeting #14 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pension.
A recording is available from Parliament.
2:35 p.m.
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Yes, I would ask Mr. Sewell as well, both you and Mr. Sewell.
Go ahead.
2:35 p.m.
As an Individual
It is certainly a bigger issue in the long run. No matter how hard we work, not everything is getting paid, and my credit card is getting bigger, my line of credit is getting bigger and there's no relief. This is much bigger than just this.
2:35 p.m.
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
I'm really sorry to hear that. It pains me that anybody, whether it be someone in our armed forces or retirees or their partners, has to go through something like this.
Did anybody ever sit down...? I know that my colleague, MP Roberts, mentioned this, and Mr. Boudreau answered and said something about being 20 years old and not dealing with this. Was there ever anything even updated to bring this to your attention, anything saying, “Look, this is what you would have to do, this is how much it will cost you, or if you want to provide for your spouse, common-law spouse or partner, this is how you're going to do it”? Has any of that ever happened?
2:40 p.m.
As an Individual
On that, there were not. Retirement seminars for people who are releasing from the forces do not talk about this. The other situation we have to look at is the age factors in the military. Now we allow people to come into the forces up to the age of 55, and then suddenly at 60, they're out the door. Are they getting a pension? No. If you're looking at it as a pension, that's nothing at all. Those are two factors.
The Canadian Forces Superannuation Act is old. It's needs a total revamping. It's antiquated. Veterans Affairs has no say on it, and the military has the control on it. The military also does not allow its members to have any say in it. If you look at other organizations, the union has a say on it, on their pension, on where they're going. The military doesn't do that. We've put a petition up on this, as you all know, and the military is not entitled to respond on a pension, so it has even less say than that. That's military law, and that's something we can get into and spend decades discussing, but those are basically the nuts and bolts.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Right.
Corporal Sewell, you mentioned that this isn't part of the seminars. When was the last time you attended a seminar on—
2:40 p.m.
As an Individual
I've been out of the military for a number of years. I was released at the age of 60. I have the privilege of turning 68 this year. When I was released, I didn't even get to one of those seminars because the unit I was employed by felt it was more important that I spend time doing military things at that time, which I didn't have a problem with, so I didn't get to the seminar. Most people don't get to the seminars. They don't know this question. They don't even know anything about this. If you ask any serving member of the service—the RCMP or the military—they don't have a clue about this because it's never brought up. It's one of those “let's keep it secret so nobody knows anything about it” things.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
That's an interesting point, because it's certainly not a secret. We know that. When I say “not a secret”, I mean it was in the mandate letter in 2015 and 2017. It's not a secret. I can't recall offhand how many private members' bills have addressed this. I'm sure MP Blaney could probably remind me. I think five, off the top of my head, would be the number, so it isn't secret and it surprises me even to hear that. This was certainly on the government radar from 2015 to 2017.
I know it's a bit of a broad question, but do any of the other witnesses know whether this has crept onto the radar so that people who are in similar situations aren't dealing with this, or is it generally the consensus that, until this affects you, you don't know about it?
2:40 p.m.
As an Individual
That's exactly what it is, Mr. Caputo. Until it affects you, you don't hear anything about it. I was very fortunate, unlike Kevin. I went to two retirement courses, one about four years before I retired and another one about a year before I retired. It was just a repeat of the same thing. They never discussed being married, being common law, or age 60. None of that was every mentioned. It was always that, when you retire after so many years of service, you get 2% a year, up to 35 years. That's what your pension is and, congratulations, you've reached it, but there was never anything about common law or dying. Nothing.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Thank you for that.
I see my time is up. My hope is that the analyst can make a note of that. When we move forward with recommendations, I think that's an important one: not only to change but also to change the way we communicate information.
Thank you for your answers.
2:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you, Mr. Caputo.
Now I'd like to invite Mr. Sameer Zuberi for five minutes.
Go ahead, please, Mr. Zuberi.
2:40 p.m.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all the witnesses for being here.
I have learned a lot while substituting today in this committee. I want to share that, like many here, I also served in uniform, albeit part time in the reserves, but I can empathize with your current situation. I hear you, as we all do here. We hear you loud and clear, and we do care and want to make things better.
For the spouses, thank you for supporting those who have served in uniform for so long, for so many years. Your personal moral support is very important and welcomed, I'm sure, by those who did serve.
I want to do a bit of a dive into some of the gendered aspects of things. From the data we have, we know that 8% of female veterans are of low-income status, whereas only 4% of male veterans are of low-income status. I'm just wondering if any of the witnesses can shed some light on why, in their opinion, female veterans are twice as likely to be low income as are men. Would anybody like to shed some light on that?
2:45 p.m.
As an Individual
With that, you also have to look at, particularly for the military and the RCMP, the time of service. Females, up until now, have not been doing 25 years in either one of them, whereas males have. You have to look at time in versus pension, basically. It's simple.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Thank you.
I was thinking of that also on my own, but we want to hear it from the witnesses, too, to get it on the record.
Would anybody else like to share their insights on that?
2:45 p.m.
As an Individual
I would have to say that, based on my experience in corrections—I can't speak about the military or the RCMP—now that we have more women in the service working in male institutions, why there are low-income females, I really and truly don't know. I don't know.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Would you say that the pay grade we're dealing with in terms of the retirements, the salary upon completing one's career, has an impact on that? Essentially, the seniority of women in professions, would you say that's part of it?
2:45 p.m.
As an Individual
This is going to sound, probably, not correct, but like Kevin said, men seem to last a lot longer in our professions than females do. I have no idea why. I don't know if it's family. I just don't know, but the women don't seem to do 20, 15 or even 30 years of service in corrections.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Interestingly, you mentioned about how, when you were close to retirement, you had two courses that basically gave you a primer on what to expect during retirement, but they weren't necessarily a fulsome explanation. Maybe, continuing off of what you said earlier, a culture shift—not necessarily a shift entirely but adding to the culture—might help to make it more inclusive for women. Do you have any comments?
2:45 p.m.
As an Individual
I agree 100%, yes. You have to remember that, when you go to your retirement course, they're talking about you and your spouse. They're not talking about the day you retire or three months later when your spouse leaves you and now, all of a sudden, here's what you can and can't do. They don't talk about that. They're talking about couples in retirement, typically, and you're either married or common law, and you're always covered, so you thought.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
I'll cede the half-minute that's left to my colleague Mr. Samson.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS
I'll be very quick. I think we've hit on the interesting part. Rachel touched on it. Mr. Caputo and others touched on that we need to find out what communication is being offered in sessions of education around this. That's a big issue.
My question is for Corporal Sewell, very quickly.
You stated that they changed it in the States 10 years ago. Do you know what the change looks like?
2:45 p.m.
As an Individual
This change took place approximately 10 years ago. Like I said, I'm more than willing to reach out again to this gentleman, who has already said that he has no problem talking to your committee and giving his background and his advice to you so you can look at it, too.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Excuse me, Mr. Samson, but because you're not wearing your headset, the interpreters are having a hard time translating what you're saying. I'll give you an additional 15 seconds.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS
Can you reach out to your colleague and anyone else and get the information to us? He may not be able to present, but if you can get the information to us, it would help our committee as we deliberate to make recommendations. Thank you.