Veterans Affairs Committee on May 20th, 2022

[BGen Virginia Tattersall]

I'm sorry. I'm not quite understanding the question. If the survivor passes away, what happens is that the annuitant will not now recoup into some account the amount that was set aside for the survivor benefit. In other words, they're not going to be made whole for the period of time for which they took a reduced annuity so that they could create the benefit. However, what happens is that their pension then will go back up to 100% of what they would have received had they never created the optional survivor benefit.

I hope that answers the question.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you so much.

It's important for us to understand this, because there are also other pension benefits in the private sector and outside that a veteran can look into. Am I correct?

[BGen Virginia Tattersall]

There are certainly members who are part of the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act receiving benefits and also receiving benefits under the Canada pension plan and/or the Quebec pension plan, depending on their province of residence. They would be entitled to the OAS, the old age supplement, if they met the threshold. Then there would be anything they had invested on their own by way of RRSP funds to create further benefits for themselves. That would be on their side.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you for sharing that with us.

You mentioned that between the veteran, RCMP and other public service survivors there are different acts there, but it's very similar in context to where, in any marriage after 60, they are not eligible for the survivor benefit fund.

[BGen Virginia Tattersall]

Mr. Chair, I would request that Treasury Board respond to that one, please.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Ms. Garrett-Baird, maybe you can answer that, please.

[Crystal Garrett-Baird]

No, as Brigadier-General Tattersall indicated, I would defer this one to Treasury Board Secretariat. Veterans Affairs Canada has no jurisdiction over any of the superannuation acts that have been referenced.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Let's try with Mr. Crabtree.

[Simon Crabtree]

Could you please repeat your question? I'm just making sure I understand. Is this in relation to the purchase of annuities or...?

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Across survivors, the veteran, RCMP and other public service survivors, how are they different in context in terms of whether or not marriage after 60 will allow their annuity to be shared with their surviving spouse?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Could you do it in 15 seconds, please, Mr. Crabtree?

[Simon Crabtree]

All right. I'll be very quick.

They all have very similar optional survivor benefits. They are all actuarially determined. They're calculated based on an actuarial formula as to what the reduction should be in the benefit to pay for this, depending on what the member opts for with regard to a replacement benefit for their surviving spouse.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Mr. Miao.

Mr. Desilets, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a few questions for Ms. Garrett‑Baird.

You referred to the Veterans Survivor Fund, a $150‑million fund, if I am not mistaken.

How much of that has been used to date?

[Crystal Garrett-Baird]

Absolutely none of the funding has been used to date. The funding for research came from within the department's reference levels. We have not accessed the $150 million that was put forward in budget 2019.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

So the fund has been in existence for three years and there would still be two more years to use those monies.

Are there any plans?

[Crystal Garrett-Baird]

When budget 2019 was announced, as I noted, we had no information about this group of individuals to even know what their needs were or how this fund could properly address their needs. We did not want to create a fund that did not meet the needs of the survivors who were targeted.

As such, we engaged in two elements of research, one being the qualitative research as introduced by Dr. Li today. I want to indicate that there was a lot of work done with Dr. Li to support recruitment. Veterans Affairs Canada shared on its social media the study that was under way and how participants were needed. We also supported mail-outs and offered to engage veterans organizations.

The second element was the quantitative data piece that was undertaken with Statistics Canada. That was absolutely pivotal to inform us of the size and characteristics of this population. As I mentioned, that population is around 4,500 people.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Ms. Garrett‑Baird, I have to interrupt you because I don't have much time.

Can Mr. Li's report be made available to this committee?

[Crystal Garrett-Baird]

I believe Dr. Li indicated that he would make that available.

I also want to reiterate that the research, both from Statistics Canada and the study that Dr. Li did, is key to what we're doing right now, which is determining the options and the way forward for the veteran survivors—

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

So you are assuring us that the report will be made available to us.

The people from Statistics Canada provided us with tables and results, but they were not asked to do an analysis of these results. These numbers and data are quite complex.

Would it be possible for an analysis to be done, since money is available? Could they do an analysis of their very thorough work, since they themselves are willing to do it?

[Crystal Garrett-Baird]

I can share with you the numbers that I shared in my opening remarks of how many individuals were identified by Statistics Canada, the percentage that was female and the percentages that are above and below the low-income median line. We're happy to share that information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Garrett-Baird.

I'd like to invite Ms. Rachel Blaney for her two and a half minutes.

Please, go ahead.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

I'm going to have to rely on the witnesses to decide who the best person is to answer this question. I think it may be Mr. Crabtree, but if I'm wrong you will let me know.

I am trying to understand, because this is unique. When we think about the folks who are in this situation with the marriage after 60 clause, they are the ones who fill out the optional survivor benefit. That is not a normal practice for other pensions, from what I understand. We won't get into that.

What I am trying to understand is, if a member fills that form out and gives up between 30% to 50% of their pension.... For example, one of the veterans we are working with now has submitted over $150,000 to put away for his wife when he passes. Now the wife is not doing well and it doesn't look like she's going to be with us much longer. When that happens, I understand that the veteran is removed from the OSB program and his pension returns to 100%, but what happens to all of that money? In this case, it's $150,000?

Will that money come back to the veteran? This is them giving up their pension. To me, it's not the same as being a person who lives five years to 40 years. It is about saying, “Here's some of my money. I'm giving it up because I don't want this person to be without.”

Can somebody please explain? Does that money stay in that big pot, or does any of that money come back to the person whose pension it was and who signed off on the optional survivor benefit?

[Simon Crabtree]

I would look at the optional survivor benefit, which, as you pointed out, is something that is not offered by most pension plans. It is something that the public sector plans put in place—I think it was in 1992—as an option.

I would look at this like term life insurance. It's an option that is provided to members that allows them to provide for a spouse who otherwise wouldn't qualify under a normal pension survivor benefit. It's true that the member's surviving spouse will not benefit from that in all cases. It's possible that they will pay in for a benefit and take a reduction for a period of time and they won't yield the benefit of it.

Yes, the plan would not be paying out in those circumstances, and the funds would remain in the plan.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

I think that's my time, Chair.

Thank you for answering that question clearly.