Evidence of meeting #23 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was meincke.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:40 a.m.
Corporal (Retired) and Host, Operation Tango Romeo, Trauma Recovery Podcast for Military, Veterans, First Responders, and Their Families, As an Individual
I don't know. I couldn't comment, but they are aware that there are lengthy letters saying.... Everything that's in the transcripts is on his VAC account. He put it all in writing, so they're all sitting there. They are more than aware of that.
11:40 a.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
When you talk about an account and written materials, what exactly do you mean?
11:40 a.m.
Corporal (Retired) and Host, Operation Tango Romeo, Trauma Recovery Podcast for Military, Veterans, First Responders, and Their Families, As an Individual
The veteran put everything I have to talk about in letter format. My VAC Account is an encrypted system. All of these emails are encrypted end to end. He put it all in email format through My VAC Account—everything I have here, and more. All of his concerns are in writing. That all exists. Of course, VAC would know that.
11:40 a.m.
Corporal (Retired) and Host, Operation Tango Romeo, Trauma Recovery Podcast for Military, Veterans, First Responders, and Their Families, As an Individual
It is accessible to VAC. It is 100% accessible to anybody with VAC access. As a matter of fact, any service officer has access to all these files and they can read them. Anybody can read them with the correct clearance.
11:45 a.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
When you said earlier that you had already done this for others, what were you referring to specifically?
11:45 a.m.
Corporal (Retired) and Host, Operation Tango Romeo, Trauma Recovery Podcast for Military, Veterans, First Responders, and Their Families, As an Individual
What he told me directly—and this is not something I heard on the recording—was that in his original phone call when he was offered MAID, she said they could do this for him, because they had done it before. She said they'd done it before for one veteran. After he completed MAID—after they killed him—they now have supports in place for his wife and his two children. That is what he told me transpired.
11:45 a.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Okay.
I'm a little astonished by all this.
You have transcripts, but what can you tell us about the content? What led the public servant to talk about medical assistance in dying?
11:45 a.m.
Corporal (Retired) and Host, Operation Tango Romeo, Trauma Recovery Podcast for Military, Veterans, First Responders, and Their Families, As an Individual
He doesn't know either. He asked that exact same question of the VAC manager, and she also said she didn't know. She didn't know where the heck that came from.
He was asking for a completely separate service and supports for neurological injuries, and she said, “Oh, by the way, if up the road you have suicidal thoughts”—this is what he told me she said—“it's better than blowing your brains out against the wall.”
That is what he told me she said. It was very sensitive of her.
11:45 a.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
In your testimony, you said that you were worried that Veterans Affairs Canada would make you pay for testifying here by cancelling your disability benefits.
What makes you say that?
11:45 a.m.
Corporal (Retired) and Host, Operation Tango Romeo, Trauma Recovery Podcast for Military, Veterans, First Responders, and Their Families, As an Individual
It's human nature. People can be vindictive. Here I am, contradicting....
I listened to the live testimony on Thursday, and there were three points that I believe to be untrue. One, I do not believe that the call was not recorded. I do not believe that, and neither does the veteran. That's part of the transcripts. I believe that is untrue.
It was also avoided that MAID was pushed, as opposed to, “Oh, by the way, this is something that may be offered.” It was pushed, because he said the words in the transcript. He asked, “Why did you ask this of me? Why are you talking about this?” She was saying, “Well, you know, just in case, up the road....” She was pushing it like a bad used car salesman. It was pushed and he asked about the legality of it. “How is this legal?” he asked the VAC manager. How is this legal? This can't be legal. You can't push this on people.
That is not reflective of the testimony that I heard on Thursday, and that makes me angry, because integrity is doing the right thing, regardless of the consequences. I know that I'm threatening two people's jobs today by saying this. I'm aware of that, and that is why I fear for my benefits. Two people, I believe, were not speaking the truth on Thursday and they could lose their jobs over it. That's why I'm nervous.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you, Mr. Desilets.
I'd like to welcome MP Ken McDonald to our committee, who is replacing Wilson Miao.
Now I'll turn to Ms. Rachel Blaney for six minutes. The floor is yours.
11:45 a.m.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
I want to thank all of our witnesses today. Of course, there's a special thanks to the veterans who served us so well. I'm sad to hear that the return service is not as good.
There's a special recognition to you, Mr. Meincke. My grandfather was also in the Princess Patricia, so it's very good to be in this space with you today.
One of the things I want to say is that it sounds, Mr. Meincke, like you have a relationship with the veteran who experienced this, and I want to thank you so much for assisting that veteran. I also want to ask you to pass on my thanks to them for being so brave to bring this forward. It's not easy, as you said and outlined very clearly before, to speak up. I want to say thank you, through you, for making sure that this incident didn't go invisible, and for making it seen. I want to pass that on.
11:50 a.m.
Corporal (Retired) and Host, Operation Tango Romeo, Trauma Recovery Podcast for Military, Veterans, First Responders, and Their Families, As an Individual
The credit for that goes to the veteran. He went to Mercedes Stephenson personally, and I can say that the Global News report was done very well. I was actually quite surprised. I didn't expect it to be accurate, but it was.
11:50 a.m.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you.
I think part of the testimony that we heard very clearly, both in the last one and in this one, is about the importance of having these conversations recorded so that things can be reviewed in a meaningful way. Based on the testimony we heard last week from the department, it was clear to me that if a veteran calls in to get support through the call centre, all of those are recorded.
However, if the worker calls from their office directly to the veteran, those calls are not recorded. There seem to be, from the department's perspective, some concerns about privacy, which really don't make sense to me, that a call coming in is less private than a call going out. I'm not sure I understand that analysis.
I think what I will do today is ask all of the people who've testified if they have any thoughts about the importance of maintaining recording so that we can test for these kinds of incidents, so that there is some way for accountability, and whether there are any concerns of privacy for the veteran in making sure that these are recorded.
I'm going to go in the way in which we started. First I will go to Colonel Conrad.
11:50 a.m.
Col (Ret'd) John D. Conrad
Thank you. I'll be brief so that we can run the table this time.
Yes, I'm astonished that these conversations are not recorded. You cannot pick up a telephone and return a call to Veterans Affairs. You cannot call your caseworker or try to get back to the same desk. It's so precise and clinical.
I am shocked that these recordings don't occur, not just for the protection of the veteran, but also for the caseworker. It would make terrific sense that it would occur, so I'm quite surprised by that. And also—
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Excuse me, Mr. Conrad.
Could you turn on your camera, please, so that we will be able to see you? I'm sorry to interrupt.
11:50 a.m.
Col (Ret'd) John D. Conrad
I'm sorry, Mr. Chair.
11:50 a.m.
Col (Ret'd) John D. Conrad
The last point I was going to make was that the My VAC Account, as has been indicated, is an excellent written summation of most—or at least the front end of most—conversations with Veterans Affairs.
I'll leave it there.
11:50 a.m.
Corporal (Retired) and Host, Operation Tango Romeo, Trauma Recovery Podcast for Military, Veterans, First Responders, and Their Families, As an Individual
I'm not sure what to say. I don't believe the call was not recorded. I don't think it's even possible.
Even if that were true, somehow there would be notes. There are always notes. There's a summation of the conversation. Because you have to. I don't know a single veteran in the system who hasn't gone through a caseworker every six months, so there have to be records. There have to be notes. This has to be documented, because when they burn out and the new caseworker comes in, they'd be starting from zero with no notes.
That doesn't make any sense. Of course there are notes. My bank records all my calls. Of course it's recorded. I do not believe the testimony. I believe it was false on Thursday.
11:50 a.m.
NDP
11:50 a.m.
Acting Director, Veterans Services, National Headquarters, The Royal Canadian Legion
I can't speak on what's recorded by VAC or what isn't, but I'm very concerned that it should always be the veteran's choice. If they're talking about their families or other personal information, it should be the veteran's choice.
That's really the only comment I have, because, as others have said, there are always records through notes, through My VAC Account and through client notes in the computer system. There are always notes and a track of something.
In some cases, I believe it should be the veteran's choice as to whether they want to speak about personal issues or not, but it's also there to protect the VAC employee.
Thank you.