Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 34 of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Monday, October 3, 2022, the committee resumes its study on the national strategy for veterans employment after service.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, so members may participate remotely using the Zoom application.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I ask that you wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself.

Please keep in mind that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

In accordance with our routine motion, I wish to inform the committee that the witnesses completed the required connection testing prior to the meeting. I also want to let committee members know that my coloured cards are back today, so I will signal when you have a minute left and then when your time is up.

Yes, I said that myself, but I am going to be a little more strict on the time because I know members know the routine. Members are preparing questions, and they would like to ask questions of the witnesses, so I am going to be a bit more strict on the time in order to help. When I say it's over, be ready to....

Without further ado, please join me in welcoming our witnesses.

First, from the Canadian Corps of Commissionaires, we have retired Captain(N) Paul Guindon, chief executive officer, Commissionaires Ottawa, and retired Captain(N) Harry Harsch, chief of staff, Commissionaires National Office.

Also with us is Debbie Lowther, chief executive officer and co-founder, Veterans Emergency Transition Services.

Mr. Guindon, please go ahead. You have five minutes.

Please go ahead.

[Captain, N) (Retired) Paul Guindon (Chief Executive Officer, Commissionaires Ottawa, Canadian Corps of Commissionaires]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Members of the committee, we appreciate the opportunity to appear before you to participate in your study on the national strategy for veteran employment after service.

Commissionaires has been employing veterans since 1925, when the Canadian Corps of Commissionaires was established to ensure that veterans returning from the European battlefield had work if they needed it. We have always understood the value, skill and experience of those ex-soldiers, sailors and aviators.

While the Corps of Commissionaires is often associated with guarding federal government infrastructure, our social mandate guides us to employ veterans in whatever capacity that best advantages them and their families.

The Corps of Commissionaires employs some 4,400 veterans at all levels, from security guards to CEOs, and has been the largest private employer of veterans for decades. We also have a national program for hiring military spouses, providing flexibility and job security even if they relocate every few years.

We recognize that improving the economic well-being and opportunities for veterans is about more than simply offering a veteran a job. It is about continually innovating and expanding the services we provide to our clients—so that we can offer more technical and highly specialized jobs to veterans and their families.

Beyond traditional security guarding, the spectrum of innovative employment offered to our commissionaires includes work in threat risk assessment, computerized monitoring and surveillance, outsourced police services and bylaw enforcement, comprehensive security training programs, security system installation, software and simulation solutions for the defence and public security sectors, cybersecurity and the operation of the largest criminal background check infrastructure in the country.

What makes us different is that we meet the unique needs and experiences of veterans by providing the military and RCMP culture and camaraderie that veterans do not find in civilian life. We are veterans serving veterans. Board directors and senior management are overwhelmingly veterans of the Canadian Armed Forces, the RCMP and police services.

The fact that we are led by veterans is a critical element in understanding the unique experiences of veterans and their employment needs as they transition to civilian life.

Over the years we have augmented that inherent understanding by conducting research surveys to better understand the needs of veteran commissionaires, as well as the broader veteran community. These surveys show that veterans join the commissionaires at various points in their lives. Many served in the armed forces for only a few years and then moved on to something else before joining the commissionaires. These veterans have no military or RCMP pension at all and rely on their wages to live. They have not always found a good match for their skills and interests. Frequently they are underemployed or unemployed when they come to us, so we offer a safety net. We also provide temporary employment for releasing military personnel until they find another job in the public or private sector.

That is all to say that our experience shows that there is no one-size-fits-all approach to employing veterans, simply because veterans have multiple needs in transition.

The Corps of Commissionaires offers many programs and services consistent with a national veteran employment strategy. We believe these offerings could be enhanced, and added to, with great benefit to Canada’s veterans. We have several initiatives to support veterans and their families. We are prepared to step up and do even more.

As a not-for-profit, we are fully committed to serving our people. In fact, about 90% of our revenue goes to veteran employees in the form of wages and benefits.

We are also dedicated to supporting veterans' causes. Last year we donated over $2.3 million to veterans' charities and causes, including getting homeless veterans off the street; respite programs for military parents, teens and children; and Canada-wide health care research for seniors and veterans. In the last decade we have donated over $10 million.

We would welcome an opportunity to play a larger role and work with government in designing and implementing beneficial and innovative veteran employment services and programs.

Our bottom line is that any veteran who seeks employment will be hired.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Guindon. You stayed within your allotted time.

Now let's go to Ms. Lowther, for five minutes or less, please.

Please go ahead.

[Debbie Lowther, Chief Executive Officer and Co-Founder, Veterans Emergency Transition Services]

Mr. Chair and committee members, thank you for the invitation to speak with you this evening regarding a national strategy for veterans' employment after service.

At first I wasn't sure that I would accept the invitation, because I didn't feel I would have anything to contribute here today. In addition, I didn't think I knew enough about the employment programs and services already offered by Veterans Affairs Canada. When asking case managers about these programs, we receive little to no information, and it's usually conflicting information.

When I expressed my hesitance to my staff, who are on the front lines working with veterans, they felt that our challenges in finding accurate information regarding employment services for veterans are the exact reason I should attend, so here I am.

I watched the committee meeting on Monday with the officials from Veterans Affairs, which I found very interesting. They spoke about their services and initiatives around employment and career transition, which was an impressive list. However, it was the first time I had heard about many of the initiatives. For example, my staff and I were not aware that VAC had an entire veteran employment unit. We weren't aware that VAC had a “Hire Veterans” LinkedIn page. We weren't aware that VAC hosted a webinar series focused on employment opportunities for veterans, and we also were not aware that VAC had a one-stop job bank for veterans.

We are a national organization that supports veterans who are homeless, at risk of becoming homeless or otherwise in crisis. The majority of the veterans we support are referred to us by Veterans Affairs case managers. This means that we regularly speak to case managers from across the country, and they have yet to mention any of the initiatives that were talked about on Monday. If we asked 50 case managers about employment supports offered by VAC, we would receive 50 different answers.

The point I am trying to make is that it doesn't matter what significant initiatives and services VAC provides if veterans aren't aware of them. Most veterans rely on their case managers to be the experts on the benefits and services to which they may be entitled, but what if the case manager has a limited amount of knowledge of these benefits and services? Veterans might go to the VAC website to look for information, but in looking at the website myself, the information is vague and may leave a veteran with more questions than answers. Who answers those questions if the case managers aren't 100% knowledgeable about the suite of services available?

I am not trying to make it sound like all case managers are incompetent, because that certainly isn't the case. There are many outstanding case managers, but when we or the veterans we support ask questions and get a different answer every time, that indicates to me that something isn't working.

This committee heard on Monday that the webinar series that VAC hosted saw 2,500 people participate. We also heard that the HireVeterans.com LinkedIn page has 3,000 members; however, I don't recall hearing any numbers to support the success of those initiatives. How many veterans were able to gain employment as a result of those initiatives? The success of such initiatives must be measured to determine whether or not they are hitting the mark.

We've been talking about veterans' transition, of which career transition is a part, for such a long time now, and it seems there have been little more than baby steps taken to figure it out. I understand it's a complex issue, and no two veterans' experiences and situations are the same. An employment strategy or a strategy addressing transition overall can't just be a one-size-fits-all solution, but we have to start somewhere.

There is a saying that we see the world from where we sit, and from where we are sitting, despite efforts made by the department, many veterans—and even stakeholders like us—need to be better informed on benefits and services available from VAC. The same could be said for many case managers.

We are also seeing, as are many Canadians, that we are currently experiencing a labour shortage, so the time for a national strategy for veterans' employment after service is now.

I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Ms. Lowther, for your opening remarks.

I would also like to thank Mr. Guindon and Mr. Harsch for their service, as is our wont on the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

We will now move into questions and answers.

I invite Ms. Wagantall, for six minutes or less.

Please, Cathay Wagantall, the floor is yours.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Thank you, all, for being here this evening. We're looking forward to questioning from this side of the House, but we're going to split that up.

Ms. Lowther, I'm going to ask you a number of questions, if that's possible.

You've mentioned that the majority of your referrals come directly from case managers within Veterans Affairs. I know you're national in scope. I've been to British Columbia. I see your amazing services here on Besserer, and of course you're in Halifax. You have a proven track record, and in fact you are doing so many referrals from VAC. Are you a recognized and preferred provider by VAC?

[Debbie Lowther]

No, we are not currently a registered service provider with VAC. We were at one point in time, but that status was removed at the end of the contract that we had. Now we receive our funding from the department through the veteran and family well-being fund. While that provides us with some funding, it does not mean we are recognized service providers.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

When did that contract end?

[Debbie Lowther]

It was in 2018.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Are you comfortable going into why it ended or what the potential is to become one of those registered providers again?

I know that's a significant opportunity for you as an organization of veterans helping veterans.

[Debbie Lowther]

We would love to be considered as service providers again.

When our contract ended, we were told by the minister at the time that the contract couldn't be continued because the government does not do sole-source contracts. That was the reason we were given for that contract ending.

We were told we would have to apply for our funding through the veteran and family well-being fund.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Okay, so there was not an opportunity not to be a sole-source contract?

How would you go about trying to access those funds?

What were you told regarding the potential to access funds?

[Debbie Lowther]

We have been told over the last several years that the department is working on it. They are trying to figure out a way to provide us with some sort of ongoing funding. Currently, applying for the funding on an ongoing basis from the veteran and family well-being fund is stressful for me, my staff, the volunteers and the veterans that we support. It would be nice to have a little more security as far as funding goes.

We're not asking for a lot, just enough to help provide us with the finances we need to support the veterans who are being referred to us by the department.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

In that process, are you basically looking for more stable funding that wouldn't require constant requesting?

[Debbie Lowther]

Yes.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

I remember you being here some time ago, and you talked about the veterans emergency fund, which was set up by the government—a million dollars to assist them in emergency circumstances. They were having trouble getting it out the door.

Can you tell me a bit about how you were requested to assist in that way, and how much of that you did?

[Debbie Lowther]

The veterans emergency fund allows for veterans to receive up to $2,500 a year for things in an emergency situation, to help maintain safety and shelter. The issue we have with the veterans emergency fund is that it's not consistently administered across the country. The case managers administer it themselves.

If there are 400 case managers, they each interpret the policy differently. We have some case managers who will tell a veteran that they don't qualify. Then the next case manager will approve it for the exact same thing for another veteran. There's a real lack of consistency there.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

On the funding side of things, we heard recently in the news about a lot of money, a billion dollars being given back to the government from VAC. Part of the explanation is that they always ask for more than they need, not knowing how many programs are going to be approached.

That's a whopping amount of money.

[Debbie Lowther]

It is a big amount of money. The first thing that popped into my head when I read that article was that the billion dollars would go a long way to clear up the backlog. That money could be spent on that.

Honestly, hearing that all of that money was returned was a bit disheartening for us because, as I've said, we've been told regularly that the department is looking at ongoing funding. They just have to figure out where it's going to come from. To find out that the money was there is a bit disheartening.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

All right.

Basically you're saying that you've been told to wait and wait because they are looking for funding, and yet, at the same time, there is funding here. Perhaps it's designated a little differently, but obviously there's that need there to enable our veterans organizations to do the work they need to do.

Just briefly, then, this is about a comprehensive employment strategy, which sounds good and is good, but then again, it's all about the ability to succeed in rolling this out.

What is your feeling about the education and training benefit, and the opportunities it provides to be prepared to be employed?

[Debbie Lowther]

It's a great benefit for the veterans who know about it. Again, as I mentioned in my remarks, a lot of veterans aren't aware of what they're entitled to, and the education training benefit is no different. We had a veteran last week who was going to school. He was three terms into a five-term program, and he was doing it through employment insurance because he had no idea about the education benefit—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I'm so sorry. Thank you, Ms. Lowther.

I have to go now to Mr. Darrell Samson, for six minutes or less, please.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being with us here today as we work through how we can improve strategies and supports for veterans. Everybody needs a purpose, and if they would like a job, that's probably a very important way of supporting them. I thank you all for being here.

I have two very quick questions, Mr. Guindon.

First, what would you say the challenges are when it comes to hiring veterans?

[Capt(N) (Ret'd) Paul Guindon]

Of course, the demographic realities we are seeing right now are a factor, but they go back quite a few years. When I joined the Royal Canadian Navy in 1971, the Canadian Armed Forces had twice as many troops as they do now, which meant that a lot more members retired every year. That number is significantly lower today. We are nevertheless able to hire a high percentage of those veterans.

One of the other problems we have—and Ms. Lowther touched on this—is how difficult it can be to reach out to veterans at the source. It would probably be a good idea to provide a better gateway to the Department of National Defence so that we and all employers could promote our services to future veterans at the department level.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Then, Ms. Lowther, if you don't mind, I have a few questions. Before I start, I want to thank you and Jim, of course, and all your volunteers for the work you do across the country. It's extremely important. I don't know too many organizations that can support people 24/7, and I know we were able to reach out a number of times to help veterans through your organization, so I thank you very much for that.

You work a lot with homelessness and homeless individual veterans. Do you feel with those individuals that it's a job that's missing? What are their skills? What can we do? You're dealing with individuals who are in crisis, so can you describe what background they're coming with and how long they've been out, in general, on average? What are the supports that we could put out for them?