Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 13th, 2023

[Jason Wahl]

I think the biggest hurdle is gaining an understanding of what they're capable of and what they should be applying for.

I guess the easiest way is to go back to when I got out. I turned my kit in and got a pat on the back. Six to nine months later, I got a little envelope: Hey, this is your service record. A lot has changed. The only way to improve it on one side is to work with the veterans to understand where they are, help them with resumé writing, help them with interview prep and get them out there so they know where they can fit in.

It's hard to avoid the stigma from discrimination. As with any sort of discrimination, it's hard to overcome that. We talked earlier about trying to come up with ways to get them in front of employers and to get them access to a website or something where they register and have their profiles built, so organizations that really want to hire these veterans can actually get out there and do that.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Mr. Thorne, do you find that veterans are generally aware of the Government of Canada's veterans job bank, which, as of today, had 19,034 job postings available?

[Oliver Thorne]

In my experience, no. There's limited awareness of that resource among the folks we're working with specifically.

Now, I have to caveat that with a couple of things. First, I don't often interact directly with our veteran clients. My work within the organization is largely strategic. In addition to that, the folks we are working with are those who are struggling the most significantly, in their transition, with mental health. Again, often we're working to get them through that to a point of employment readiness, so it could also be a function of the fact that the folks we're working with often aren't looking directly at employment at that time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Thorne. That's the end of this panel.

I'd like to remind members that we have an hour for each panel, but that depends upon how many witnesses we have with opening statements and if there are technical problems. I'm also pleased to let witnesses complete their sentences, so concerning our routine motion, the first round of six minutes is clear, but for the second round I'll have to deal with the time in order to stay within one hour.

I'd like to thank our witnesses for their remarks and their input today.

I will start with André Thivierge.

He is a retired major and co-founder and co-chair of the City of Ottawa Veterans Task Force.

Thank you, Mr. Jason Wahl, founder and director of Veteran Staffing Canada, and Mr. Oliver Thorne from Veterans Transition Network, executive director.

Thank you so much for your participation.

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call the meeting back to order. We can now proceed to the second panel of witnesses.

I have a quick reminder for our witnesses. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses. We have, from Challenge Factory, Ms. Lisa Taylor, who is the president.

From Quatre-Chemins, we have Cassandra Poudrier, Executive Director.

You will have five minutes for your opening remarks.

I will start with Ms. Taylor.

Please, go ahead.

[Lisa Taylor, President, Challenge Factory]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for asking me to be here. It's time Canada had a national strategy for veteran employment after service.

As this is the first time I'm appearing before you, I'll take a minute to introduce Challenge Factory.

Challenge Factory is a research agency and workforce consultancy focused on the future of work. We have worked across North America, in Singapore and Norway, and with career practitioners and policy analysts from more than 32 countries.

As a certified B corporation, we are audited by an international body for the impact our work has on employees, communities, suppliers, governance and the environment, and our audit report is available on a public website. The process is rigorous. Only 665 out of almost 1.5 million organizations in Canada are B corps. We focus on using business as a force for good and advancing the UN sustainable development goals.

For more than 10 years, Challenge Factory's research, consulting and training have been supporting veterans, raising awareness about the benefits of hiring veterans, giving employers tools to make hiring easier and drawing on veterans' knowledge to make sure we get it right.

Our research study on veteran workplace characteristics profiled veteran employees and quantified employer bias in Canada. We have published The Canadian Guide to Hiring Veterans, developed an employer online masterclass to create veteran-ready workplaces, and produced the Hidden Talent podcast, in which veterans and employers discuss the challenges of post-service career transitions and employment from both sides of the interview table. These resources are publicly available, thanks to the support of the veteran and family well-being fund.

Personally, I am proud to sit on the Canadian Special Operations Regiment Association board.

My comments will focus on Challenge Factory's area of expertise, which is the formal field of career development within a changing labour market.

We have three recommendations for this committee to consider.

One, use a career development model and adhere to the national competency framework for career development professionals in your strategy.

Two, focus on equipping veterans with career ownership, rather than identifying specific jobs for them.

Three, make it easier for small to medium-sized enterprises in the private and non-profit sectors to hire veterans.

Career transitions always impact identity and sense of self. For veterans, the impact on identity is more extreme. Career development offers the intersectional frameworks needed to support veterans in this transition.

You already know that for many veterans, finding a job is not the challenge. However, many struggle to find purpose and a meaningful career that does not include chronic underemployment and job-hopping.

Career development is about more than jobs and training programs, and it is the cornerstone for successful strategies in addressing identity-based transitions.

Recommending veterans into specific jobs is not sound career development. It doesn't put the veteran at the centre, and it sets them up with a weak foundation for solving future career challenges, despite having great skills.

Direct job matching from military to civilian environments has led us to today, when veterans transition with an initial awareness of exactly four types of work. These are the public sector—as if that's a singular job—security, coding and cyber, and starting a business.

Job satisfaction and retention involve how roles and organizational culture align with personal motivation and reward. For example, a veteran may have the skills for security work, but the reason they thrived in the military, where they learned those skills, was the camaraderie, collective understanding of a mission and continued opportunity to learn. These key elements may not be present in the civilian job market.

That brings me to the labour demand side of the equation. Of the Canadians who work in the private sector, 90% do so within SMEs, not the large companies often involved in consultations. Small businesses do not know how to find, hire or retain veterans. Veterans do not know what small businesses do, nor how to find jobs or what can be offered.

According to the OECD, Canada has underutilized and overlooked high quality adult career services. Lifelong career engagement for veterans is a defined and solvable problem. Done well, this strategy can demonstrate how we can get career services right for all Canadians.

In summary, we offer these three recommendations: Use career development models and competency frameworks. Focus on equipping veterans with lifelong career ownership. Make it easier for small and medium-sized enterprises to hire veterans.

Thank you, and I welcome your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Ms. Taylor.

Ms. Poudrier, it is your turn, and you have five minutes.

[Cassandra Poudrier, Executive Director, Quatre-Chemins]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for taking the time to hear the views of people working in the field and for taking them into consideration.

As I thought about this speech, I took the time to talk with my colleagues and with the veterans, the men and women, we help. It is important to me that I tell you our observations, with the intention of contributing to your consideration of the potential creation of a national veterans employment strategy.

Since this is the first time I have appeared before you, I am going to talk a bit about our organization. Quatre-Chemins, formerly La maison des champions, is a not-for-profit organization whose mission is to transform the transition experience of people coming from fields in which great importance is a place on performance, such as elite sport, the armed forces, business, and the performing arts.

We aspire to a society in which each individual lives in harmony with their inner nature, a society in which we have learned to redefine ourselves beyond our uniforms and our successes. Over the course of a year, we coach these people, be they athletes, veterans, entrepreneurs or business people, in their transition process. We spend about 60 hours listening to them and helping them in their quest for identity.

So it is in this position as a privileged observer that I can tell you about certain findings regarding the experience of veterans. It is extremely important to tell you about one element in particular: in every case, whether for medical reasons or not, the effect of the process of release from military service on the person's identity has a direct effect on self-esteem and contributes to their trouble reorienting themselves outside the armed forces.

For some veterans, this search for their identity, along with the feeling of abandonment, has caused them to lose their bearings. They are disoriented. This loss of direction has led some to accept jobs and then end up changing places several months later. It is therefore essential to continue to address the idea of identity in the transition process when we talk about employability, since it is directly related to an individual's psychosocial capacity to commit to their next life cycle. It is difficult to commit to a project, a job, or even their family when they are not able to recognize their own value without the uniform.

It would also be wise to accept the possibility that this support should not be offered only by military members to military members. I will offer the example of a sergeant-major who retired after 34 years of service in the Royal 22nd Regiment, whom we are coaching. Two weeks ago, he chose, on his own initiative, to call a "full civilian", a retired vice-president of a Canadian bank, to talk to him about the real conditions associated with the transition. People gain perspective by opening up to other people who are experiencing transitions.

One of the last points raised with me in talking with veterans is the release from military service on medical grounds following the rehabilitation program. In some cases, it was concluded that the person was unable to hold equivalent employment in the civilian world. The person therefore experiences a reduction in their earning capacity and will receive compensation until the official age of retirement.

I'm going to tell you about Alain, a veteran of Bosnia with whom I worked last year. This summer, I found him a job with a firm that works with us. Alain first asked me how many hours of work the company wanted. The thing was that it needed a full-time employee. However, as a pensioned veteran, Alain was limited to $20,000 in additional income. As a result, the company, which needed stable employees, was not able to accommodate him. Alain wanted to do his part, but he found himself in a position where he could not accept the job because of the direct tax consequences it would have for him. Pensioned veterans now believe that working costs them more than not working.

In closing, I urge us, in this conversation, to expand the idea of employability to take into account what happens before a person is capable of embarking on a new project or the next stage of their life.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Poudrier. Thanks to both of you for your opening remarks.

We are going to move on to the question period. Each member of the committee will have six minutes' speaking time.

I will invite Mr. Blake Richards, the first vice-chair of the committee, to speak for six minutes, please.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

First I'd like to thank both of you. I see at least one of our previous witnesses is still with us to listen in on this panel. I want to thank each of you for excellent contributions in terms of your testimony and responses.

To the two of you currently at the table, I look forward to asking you questions and to other members of the committee being able to do so as well, but first I have to interrupt us for a minute with a motion that I'd like to move.

For your understanding, I want to explain to the two of you that as members of the committee, we have the opportunity to have the floor only at this point in the meeting. We get one opportunity, so it's the only opportunity I have. I have to move the motion and interrupt us, for hopefully a very brief period of time.

Hopefully it won't require a lot of debate or anything to move this motion and get it passed and then carry on, so that we can come back to hearing from you. I want to apologize to you and hope I still get the chance to ask you a question.

I will move this motion, which I put on notice on February 7:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a), the committee order that Veteran Affairs Canada provide, and if necessary, create, a transcript of the recorded telephone conversation of July 21 (providing for the redaction of any personal information that would identify a veteran) referred to on page 230 of the documents submitted to the committee on January 26, 2023, within 14 calendar days of the adoption of this motion.

I won't speak to this. I think it's pretty self-explanatory. We're all aware that we received a package of documents. There was a telephone conversation referred to in those documents. It was a conversation that we were all under the impression did not exist previously. It's one that we should all have access to. We should understand what was part of that conversation and further our look into the matter for which the documents were provided.

I will point members to one thing. I've clearly indicated that we should redact any information that would identify a veteran. That is also the reason I indicated we should receive a transcript rather than the recording itself. We wouldn't want anything that might identify a veteran. A transcript would make that easier. I think it's pretty straightforward, and I hope we can pass it.

I've moved it, and I hope we can carry through and pass it quite quickly so we can get back to our witnesses. I'll leave it at that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Richards.

Just to make sure, on this motion you said January 26, 2022.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

It appears that in print there's been a typo or something there. It should be 2023. It was obviously this year that we received that.

I don't think we have to actually amend it. I think we can have unanimous consent of the committee to fix the typo to 2023.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Okay.

For discussion, we have Mr. Casey.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

I have no problem with correcting the typographical error.

The suggestion that the committee didn't know of the existence of a recording is one that I do not accept. We knew that there was a call initiated by the veteran; there was a call initiated by the department. We knew it was the policy of the department to record those types of calls. The suggestion that this is somehow a surprise, I reject.

However, I have no problem with the tenor of the motion. The only concern I have is with the limited scope of the redactions in the motion. Therefore, I would propose an amendment to expand on what can be redacted.

My amendment would be to delete all the words contained between parentheses and to add wording at the end of the motion that reads:

furthermore, that Veterans Affairs Canada redact from the transcript any personal identifiable information of the veteran or Veterans Affairs Canada employees, and any personal medical information.

The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that the identity of the employees of Veterans Affairs Canada will not be divulged, and that any personal medical information will not be divulged over and above the information that Mr. Richards suggested should be redacted.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Casey.

We have an amendment on the floor. Is there any discussion?

We have Mr. Richards, and then Mr. Desilets.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I didn't put my hand up, so I'll let Mr. Desilets go.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Desilets, please go ahead.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

That will give you time to think.

Personally, I have no problem with either the amendment or the motion. What I find problematic, as I told you last week or two weeks ago, is the way we are going about things. We are interrupting the discussions and debating subjects that do not concern our guests.

Two weeks ago, I was told that it was not possible to do things differently. However, if we unanimously decide to do it, the Conservatives could table a motion today, but 10 minutes before the end of the meeting, so we can release our speakers and our witnesses, and talk among ourselves to resolve the issue. This is just one example.

We could proceed that way if everyone around the table consented to it. I think this would be much more practical and respectful. I'm not aiming this at my Conservative colleague; there may have been discussion around the table earlier.

I would very much like the way we do things to change.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you for your comments, Mr. Desilets.

I would simply remind you that under the rules, committee members are entitled to do this. As well, all members are allowed to request an adjournment of the discussion underway to get back to the witnesses.

Is there further discussion on the amendment?

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I would support the spirit of what Mr. Casey is suggesting. I also have no trouble with the idea of not providing the personal information that would identify the employee, despite the fact that, potentially, it could be an employee who did something inappropriate. I'm comfortable with that.

The last part of that amendment deals with medical information. We would have to find a way to indicate that it would be medical information that would identify an individual. The reason I would indicate that is because something like that comes down to a matter of how the department chooses to interpret it.

It could choose to interpret that to mean leaving out anything about the subject of medical assistance in dying, because you could indicate that as medical information. That is the subject matter that we're talking about. It would then, therefore, redact anything that would be useful to this committee. I don't think that was Mr. Casey's intention, but it could be interpreted that way by someone who chose to interpret it that way.

We need to find a clearer way to word that. Perhaps it would be providing further redaction of any information, including medical information that would identify a veteran. I forget the wording he used regarding a Veterans Affairs employee. In that way, it can't be interpreted so broadly that it would leave out any information that could be useful to the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Casey, go ahead.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

I may want to get the advice of the clerk on this, but it's my understanding that when a committee sends for documents, there actually is a formal and established process by which to determine whether the redactions are reasonable. There's a separate process to challenge what's in the redactions, and to have a judgment made. It is my understanding that does exist. I think that would provide the safeguard that Mr. Richards is looking for.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Casey, we would like you to repeat your intervention, and the clerk will consult during that time in order to answer your question.

Please say it again.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

It's my understanding that included in a committee's power to order documents is a review process to determine the appropriateness of the level of redaction chosen by the party producing the documents. Because there is a process to say that the documents had been over-redacted, a process we can rely on, that should provide the safeguard that Mr. Richards requires to ensure that the documents aren't all black.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Excuse me, Chair. May I intervene?