Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 15th, 2022

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Your answers were very clear. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Desilets.

Now, let's go to Ms. Rachel Blaney for six minutes, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to take this opportunity to thank the interpreters. They are doing their best, but we are having the audio of some witnesses cut out once in a while. I just want to recognize their incredible hard work. I hope we can figure out the issue.

I will go to you, Mr. Déry. I want to thank all the witnesses, of course, for their testimony, but I'm really curious to understand a little bit more about the procedure and process to protect the monuments.

You spoke about the temporary fences that went around the tomb for the forgotten soldier or the lost soldier. I do know that at the same time the other monuments weren't given the same treatment.

What is the process? Do all three monuments get the same treatment at the same time or are there certain processes that have to happen to make sure they are taken care of differently? I'm trying to get clarity in that.

[Stéphan Déry]

Thank you.

This is a really good question, Mr. Chair.

As I was trying to explain to the committee, Public Services and Procurement Canada is the custodian of the National War Memorial, the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and other monuments around the national capital region, but we are not the custodian of the aboriginal veterans and Canadian fallen monuments. Those monuments are the responsibility of the NCC.

On February 4, we had the request from the City of Ottawa saying that due to the events happening in the city, they couldn't properly ensure the safety and the security of the National War Memorial and the unknown soldier. That's why they asked us to install a fence around the monuments.

In my knowledge and in my team's knowledge, that hasn't been done since 1939 when the monument was first unveiled. Maybe Mr. Harris will correct me. It was only done around the monument when it was under renovation or restoration.

This is not done as a fait accompli. We consulted with all of our colleagues at Veterans Affairs and National Defence and everyone to ensure that they were in agreement with us for installing a fence around a public monument. The next day or the same night, we were asked by the National Capital Commission to install a fence around the other two monuments as well.

There is no precedence with one monument or the other, but a custodian has to take the responsibility. Then there's a lot of communication between those groups. I would say that these fences went up at nearly the same time. If it was a few hours or a day afterwards, it was because of the number of people we could deploy to these different sites.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much. That's very helpful.

I want to clarify for the record that temporary fences have never been put up before this. They were put up only when they were building the monument.

I want to make sure I understood that piece. I'm not sure if Mr. Harris is the right person to ask, but if somebody could clarify that for me, I would appreciate it.

[Dr. Stephen Harris]

The only instance I know of, apart from the construction and the reconstitution of the monument, is on November 11, when at times there are crowd control fences for the Remembrance Day event. That's simply a crowd control measure for the event. It's not done out of defensiveness, if I can put it that way.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

That's very helpful. Thank you so much.

If I can come back to you, Mr. Déry—through you, of course, Mr. Chair. I apologize for that.

You mentioned in your report to us that a security incident playbook was developed to make sure that there was an effective and coordinated response. Could you let the committee know if this playbook was followed in this occupation, and how it was followed? Who is, ultimately, in charge?

My last question is if there is any way for members to see or access a copy of the playbook, or is it kept securely?

[Stéphan Déry]

I will definitely be happy to provide the committee with a copy of the playbook. It's not a security incident playbook that was developed only for the War Memorial, but for all of our properties and buildings. How do we deal with manifestation and people coming...? We follow that playbook to the letter and it's helped us a lot.

As an example, for the land around the National War Memorial, before 2020, there were three custodians of the land. The NCC owned a parcel of it, we owned a parcel of it and Parks Canada owned a parcel of it. There was not necessarily the same jurisdiction or rules and regulations that applied to each of the parcels of land. Since then, Public Services and Procurement have the west and east sides of the monument. The lawn and the front are owned by the NCC.

We've made tremendous strides to simplify the management of this property and ensure its safety.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Déry.

Thank you, Ms. Blaney.

Now let's go to Mr. Fraser Tolmie, for five minutes, please.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that.

I have a couple of questions. I appreciate our guests being here.

For clarity, there were some numbers that were thrown around. The national cenotaph has been vandalized 17 times. Was the number that I was given correct? I believe Mr. Déry was the one who gave me that.

[Stéphan Déry]

Yes. I mentioned that since 2017, there have been 17 incidents, from minor—depending on what we see as minor—to more disrespectful incidents at the National War Memorial and on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

There have been 17 since 2017. They are disrespectful incidents. That is how you phrased them. There have been five recently.

There was a question brought up earlier about the desecration. Is someone dancing on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier considered one incident? Is someone else doing something else another incident? Could you clarify that for me?

[Stéphan Déry]

Yes. One incident is a person dancing on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. That has been reported to the police. There was maybe another incident the next day happening at the site. Following those, five incidents have happened between January 28 and today.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Were there costs associated to damage in those incidents?

[Stéphan Déry]

For the five incidents that we're talking about that happened from January 28 to today, there were no costs incurred, other than installing the fencing and all of this. That was not an incident, that was a preventive measure. There were no costs related to the incident, to my knowledge.

There were five, but I can tell you there were no costs incurred with this lack of respect to the monument.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you.

Are you aware of any other cenotaphs or war memorials across this country that have been damaged or vandalized?

[Stéphan Déry]

Are you asking from January 28 or 29 to now, or are we talking—

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

No, historically, have there been war memorials or cenotaphs across this country that have been vandalized?

[Stéphan Déry]

I'm not aware of the across Canada perspective. I'm aware that the helmet of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier was damaged in 2020. It was not necessarily related to the protest that was happening there at the time, but it was damaged at that time in 2020, and it was repaired by us within hours of finding out that it had been damaged.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

That's disappointing to hear.

There's a difficult balance between ensuring that these sacred spaces are available to the public and protecting them from hateful acts.

How do you believe these two priorities should be balanced?

[Stéphan Déry]

It's a difficult balance, balancing the right to protest, the Charter of Rights in Canada, and protecting national monuments like these. Honestly, as a custodian of the site, I will rely on the police force to help us to keep that balance. Sometimes there would be a tent. There's a tent right now that's set up on part of the lawn and the police have been advised.

There's a balance to be made there, and I rely on the police force to make that determination.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Mr. Déry.

Thank you, Mr. Tolmie.

We'll now go to Mr. Wilson Miao, for five minutes, please.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Mr. Déry, for joining us today for this discussion.

It's really sad to see what happened to our monument due to the convoy, but at the same time, you mentioned the temporary fence that was installed to protect that monument. However, it was also taken away by the protesters.

Looking at this experience and learning from it, do you suggest that we implement a new security strategy or set of procedures in the future to avoid things like this happening?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Déry, please.

You may answer the question.

[Stéphan Déry]

Mr. Chair, that is a really good question.

As the custodian of the site and the person responsible for maintaining the site, restoring or repairing the site when it needs to be repaired and working with the NCC to maintain the lawn around the site, I note that the monument has never been fenced in, other than, as my colleague Mr. Stephen Harris mentioned, for crowd control, with a lower, three-feet tall fence. It's a shame, in our view, to have to fence around a monument to protect it. It's also a public place to allow more than a million people to pay their respects to those who have given their lives to make this country what it is today.

Our objective is to make this site as open as possible for people to come to pay their respects. At the same time, as I said, we're maintaining the site; we're not the people policing the site or enforcing the law. It's a balance that's hard to maintain, and we really rely on the police force to tell us.... As with what happened on February 4, we can't ensure the security of the site and close it in. On February 12, when the fence was removed, we were thinking about putting the fence back up. Again, we talked to all of our partners about this and we were told that it could be worse putting a fence up than leaving it off. A decision was made at the time based on the police force's recommendation to leave it off.

It is a balance this committee could look at: access for the public versus fencing the monument in and preventing public access to it.