Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 15th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Déry and Ms. Roberts.

I will now give the floor to Mr. Samson for the next five minutes.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to thank our three witnesses for giving us extremely important information.

The acts committed on Canada's National War Memorial and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier are disgusting. What happened was truly disturbing. A fence was installed afterwards, which reassured us, but protesters took it down. The police watched them do it. I still have a great deal of difficulty understanding and accepting this type of thing.

Good people can be found among the protesters, but others are committing criminal acts and they're not being arrested for it. I find that unacceptable.

The Canadian flag being waved around was not respected when we celebrated its 57^th anniversary. I'm thinking of Nathan Cirillo, who was killed on October 22, 2014.

All of this makes me terribly sad and I'd like to know how veterans are feeling about it.

Hello, Ms. Garrett-Baird. It's a pleasure to see you again.

Did your staff get calls from veterans? They called my office to say they were very disappointed by the situation. Did veterans share their feelings with you?

[Crystal Garrett-Baird]

In terms of veterans, we represent or have about 190,000 veterans who are clients out of over 600,000 in the country. Those who engage with Veterans Affairs Canada are seeking support in benefits and services. In terms of those who have contacted us, we're working with them to ensure that they are getting the support they need. Veterans Affairs Canada does offer mental health supports, including the VAC assistance line, access to our operational stress injury clinics, disability benefits and financial benefits for service-related conditions.

We continue to work with any veteran who contacts us to ensure that they're getting the support they need, while acknowledging that we know that the incidents as they're unfolding in Ottawa are having an impact on veterans and we are here to support them.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you. That's very important to them.

Mr. Déry, you talked about a guide for security incidents, which was very helpful to responders during the events. What could be added to that guide, now that we have had such an experience? I am not asking you to give me all the details, but, in general, what strategy could be included in this guide in order to be even better prepared in the future?

[Stéphan Déry]

Thank you, Mr. Samson.

There should be better coordination between all stakeholders. We should learn from such events and see them coming, so that we are better prepared.

There have been various events in the country that we could see coming and preparations were made as a result. Together with our partners, we will have to be even more proactive in monitoring what is likely to happen and prepare accordingly. We have had very good communication with our partners, but in the future there needs to be better planning before an event starts.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I think I have about 10 seconds left.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Samson, I am sorry, but your time is up. You can come back to it later.

We'll now go to Mr. Fraser Tolmie for five minutes. Go ahead.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I'm sorry, I thought it was my colleague, Mr. Caputo, who was going next.

Is that correct?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

No.

At the beginning I had Ms. Block, and the clerk told me that you were going to take that time.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Are you okay with that, Frank?

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

It's up to you, Fraser. Have you gone already?

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I have already gone so I'll let you go, Frank, and then I can go later.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, I'll take this round.

I believe this question would be for Mr. Déry, but if I'm not directing it to the right spot, please forgive me.

In terms of the incidents, and we've heard about 17 minor to major ones, I'm trying to get a sense of what these incidents are. I have an idea of what a minor incident would be.

Can you describe the types of incidents we're seeing in these 17 instances?

[Stéphan Déry]

Ms. Chair, I don't have information here on all of the incidents that have happened over the last five years, but what I can say as an example is those two persons who were seen at night, at five o'clock in the morning, were using the monument as a public washroom. To my knowledge, in the last five years there's been minor graffiti put on some portions of the monument. It's a total lack of respect. Although it doesn't cause financial repercussions for us to repair the monument, it's a total lack of respect to the National War Memorial.

These are the kinds of incidents. It's hard for me to say some of them are bigger than others, because I think they're all incidents of a total lack of respect. They are very disrespectful to this monument.

To my knowledge, there was one incident where we had to repair the helmet on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you.

I understand exactly what you mean when it comes to respect. There aren't really degrees of disrespect; something is either disrespectful or not. I appreciate that.

When it came to the repair of the helmet was that the most significant damage that you're aware of, sir?

[Stéphan Déry]

Yes, Chair.

To my knowledge, that's the one we had to act on. There was a little graffiti that we also had to erase, but that would be the most expensive damage that we've seen in these incidents. I'm speaking about this from memory, sir. I could look into providing further accounting on this for the committee, if you wish.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you.

I'm just looking for a general estimate and trying to get a flavour for what you're saying.

Just to be sure I have this correct, about five million people have visited this memorial since 2017, so that's approximately one million people per year for the five million.

Is that correct?

[Stéphan Déry]

Since there's no gate at the National War Memorial and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier we're making estimates based on people visiting Parliament. Approximately one million people a year visit Parliament, and since Canadians pay so much respect to their veterans we assume that you don't come to Ottawa to visit Parliament without paying respect to the veterans who have put forward their lives for this country. We are also assuming people visit the memorial site. That's how we estimated that there were about one million visitors per year.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I think that's accurate.

I know when I brought my family here we visited the indigenous war memorial as well as the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, so I can understand why you're making that assumption.

If we look at averages, putting aside the last couple of weeks, we see that we average about two incidents a year. Is that correct? Those may range from somebody, as you said, urinating on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, using it as a public toilet.

[Stéphan Déry]

Yes, sir.

Chair, it's the desecration and graffiti and things of that nature. It would be 12 over the last five years if we do not include the five that just happened in the last three weeks.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

That would certainly skew the average.

I have a question about the barriers, because I saw news coverage about them. I'd love to hear a response from anybody who is in the know more so than I am.

Can anyone describe the barriers that were erected, please? Were they bolted down? How were they there, because I didn't have a chance to visit?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Caputo, someone can answer in about 10 or 15 seconds. That's all.

[Stéphan Déry]

These barriers were bolted together and were eight feet tall and each panel was 10 feet in length. They were all bolted together. They were not bolted to the pavement of the monument, but they were bolted together around the monument. Somebody would have had to have had tools to dismantle them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Mr. Déry.

Now let's go to Mr. Rogers for five minutes, please.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our guests this evening as well. It's good to see you.

It saddens me to have this conversation, to see what's happened in the last couple of weeks, to watch the media reports of the things going on around the war memorial and the lack of respect that we've seen.

Ms. Garrett-Baird, what kind of feedback have you, at Veterans Affairs, received from the people most connected to the war memorial, like veterans and legions and veterans across the country as they've seen these unfortunate events unfold in Ottawa? Have any of these people provided suggestions on what they feel are appropriate penalties or ways to increase security for the memorial sites?