Veterans Affairs Committee on March 20th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

This meeting is called to order.

Welcome to meeting number 41 of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Thursday, March 9, 2023, the committee is undertaking its study on the subject matter of the supplementary estimates (C), 2022-23, votes 1c and 5c under the Department of Veterans Affairs and vote 1c under—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

You mentioned that this meeting is pursuant to the motion that was passed by the committee on March 9. That motion indicated that this minister should be here for two hours. I note in the notice of meeting that the minister will only be here for one hour.

Can you explain why that is the case, or if you can't, could the minister explain?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I heard your point, Mr. Richards, but I have some procedure that I have to read first because this is a public meeting. Let me finish, and I will answer your question.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4) and the motion adopted on March 9, 2023, the committee will now begin its study of the Main Estimates 2023‑2024. We will be examining votes 1 and 5 for the Department of Veterans Affairs, and vote 1, under the heading of “Veterans Review and Appeal Board”, which were referred to the committee on February 15, 2023.

This meeting is taking place in hybrid format pursuant to the House order of Thursday, June 23, 2022. Some of the members and witnesses are attending in person.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules for witnesses and members to follow.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are participating by videoconference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. When you are not speaking, your mic should be on mute.

A reminder that all comments must be directed through the chair.

Pursuant to the internal economy motion regarding sign-on tests, I can inform the committee that the witnesses completed the required tests before the meeting.

I would like to welcome Ms. Lisa Marie Barron, who replaces Ms. Blaney. Thank you for being here with us.

I'd also like to welcome our witnesses. Welcome to the Honourable Lawrence MacAulay, Minister of Veterans Affairs.

We welcome the following officials from the Department of Veterans Affairs: Paul Ledwell, deputy minister; Ken MacKillop, associate deputy minister, by videoconference; Amy Meunier, assistant deputy minister, commemoration and public affairs branch, by videoconference; Steven Harris, assistant deputy minister, service delivery branch; Pierre Tessier, assistant deputy minister, strategic policy, planning and performance branch, who is with us in person; and Jonathan Adams, acting director general and acting chief financial officer, finance.

To answer Mr. Blake's question, there was indeed a motion and the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure did its work. There was some question about inviting the minister for the review of the Supplementary Estimates (C) 2022‑2023 and the Main Estimates 2022‑2023. From the communications we have received, the minister is available for one hour only. That is why I agreed to send an invitation to appear for one hour. The departmental officials, on the other hand, will be with us for the entire two hours of the meeting.

The members of the committee are free to debate the main estimates and the supplementary estimates.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I don't want to belabour this, because we have only an hour with the minister, but was anything done to find out why the minister is failing to comply with what we asked of him?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

We contacted the minister's office, and he was available for only one hour. We will have plenty of time during this session, so maybe the minister will be able to answer your questions.

Right now—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Mr. Chair, I'll just point out that if the minister chooses not to comply in the future, I think it would be respectful to the committee for you as chair to endeavour to find out why and to hold him to account a little bit on what the committee is expecting. I think it's incumbent upon the minister to show some respect for the committee and comply with what we're asking. He's here in Ottawa, clearly, so he should be able to be here for the two hours.

I'll leave it at that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Okay. Let's start.

Minister, you have five minutes to deliver your opening remarks. The committee members will then have questions for you.

Please go ahead.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and members.

Thank you for having me here today. It's a pleasure to be here, and it's always a pleasure to come to the committee. I'd like to thank you for your recent work on veterans employment, and I look forward to receiving your report and recommendations.

I'm here today to discuss the main estimates and supplementary estimates (C).

On the main estimates, you will see funding to extend disability adjudication resources for another year, as set out in budgets 2020 and 2021. This will help us to continue to reduce the backlog.

I know you all have a keen interest in where we're at in reducing the backlog, so I'm pleased to share with you that the backlog presently sits at 6,800, which is more than a 70% reduction since its peak of more than 23,000 in 2020. We're on track to meet the service standard by the end of the summer.

We also received additional funding to support mental health benefit programs. These programs allow veterans to immediately receive mental health care when they apply for disability benefits for an eligible mental health condition and to maintain this support until a decision is made on the application or for up to two years from the time the application is received.

On the supplementary estimates (C), you will see requests that are specific to the department's commemorative activities. Remembering our fallen and the important battles that have marked Canadian military history is vitally important. This is why, these estimates contain funding requests for our commemorative infrastructure in Europe.

Last year we learned that a commercial development threatened the Juno Beach Centre and the surrounding land. We worked closely with the Juno Beach Centre association and French authorities to jointly purchase the land. As part of my European trip last month, I was able to congratulate everyone involved. The $4 million in these estimates will help to protect the site from any future development. I can assure you that every dollar noted in the main estimates and supplementary estimates (C) will make a significant difference for veterans and their families and in our efforts to honour Canadian military service abroad.

The department's annual budget is $2 billion higher than it was when we formed government. That is money going directly into the pockets of veterans.

I would also like to note that I was pleased to provide the committee with the investigative report into inappropriate conversations with veterans about medical assistance in dying. You have all had the chance to review the findings, and I hope that, like me, you are relieved to know that these isolated incidents, though terrible, are not indicative of a more systemic issue.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'll be pleased to try to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We're going to start our rounds of questions of six minutes each right now. I invite the first vice-chair of the committee, Mr. Blake Richards, to begin.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Minister, first of all, thank you for being here. I wish you were here for the amount of time we'd asked you for, but I appreciate that you are here.

However, I will say this: I've had this role as your shadow minister for about six months now, and I've taken the opportunity to meet and visit with veterans across this country. The first thing I will say is that many times what they're telling me is, “We're so glad someone's listening.” They feel like you and your government aren't listening.

Second, they're pointing out things like lack of service for many of the claims they need to live their lives. At a meeting recently, I brought up the point that the service standard is 16 weeks. There was laughter throughout the room, because they know that is just not anywhere near what's happening right now. There was literally laughter at the idea that this was the standard. They were not feeling that it's being met. There is a new switchover of a contract that's leaving veterans without services. There is just....

I could go on and on, but I think what it really boils down to is a saying that we've all heard, and veterans use it consistently: “Deny. Delay. Die.” It's the way they feel they're being treated.

It all comes to a real head when we talk about this medical assistance in dying fiasco that we've seen in your department. It really, I think, hits home hard for a lot of veterans, who feel that they're not getting the consideration they deserve. Then, on top of it, there's the insult that it's being suggested to some of their comrades that maybe they should consider ending their lives. It's something that needs to be taken seriously.

I looked through the report that you mentioned in your opening comments. I looked through that report. It seems as though you basically asked employees to self-report if they did something wrong, and maybe did a keyword search of some files.

It also notes that there were as many as 19 other veterans who came forward and indicated that they had these discussions brought up to them inappropriately as well, but you found that none of those were valid allegations. Are you saying that those veterans were all lying?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much, Mr. Richards.

If you have met these people, all I would ask you is why you didn't bring it forward.

You know that I asked for an investigation led by the deputy minister. If you don't press the deputy minister, you could go to the ombudsperson—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

No, you're making an allegation, Minister. I'll tell—

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

If you don't press the ombudsperson, you could go to the RCMP. If you have information that indicates this took place, why would you not bring the information forward when you're asked to do it?

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Do you know why veterans are afraid to come forward to your department, to you? They're afraid of repercussions. Your department's already not providing them with the services they need. They feel that it will be even worse for them if they come forward.

I've talked to many veterans and I've encouraged them to come forward, but they tell me they're afraid to come forward because they're afraid your department will give them repercussions for it. That's why they're not coming forward, Minister.

When you have a report that comes out that says that up to 19 more of them have come forward with allegations, and you're telling us that you found there's nothing inappropriate that occurred, how do you think that makes veterans feel? It really sounds as though you're saying that you think they're lying. Is that what you're saying? Why are you not believing these veterans? Why are you not taking their allegations seriously?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Mr. Richards, you were asked by the government. Do you not trust public servants? Do you not trust the ombudsperson? Do you not trust the RCMP? If you have six or 19 and you're bringing these figures forward, we would ask you, for the sake of the veterans whom you seem to meet, who are so fearful of us—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

This isn't about me, Minister—

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

If they're fearful of us, I would like to hope that you would bring up what you did for veterans when you were in government—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

This isn't about me. This is about you.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I hope you brought that up—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

This is about the veterans—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Excuse me. You know the rule. We have interpretation, so we have to wait for your turn. If you ask a question for about two minutes, you have to allow about two minutes or so for the answer.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

It sounds like he's—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Minister, you have the floor. Just conclude. We have one minute and 20 seconds left so—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

It sounded to me as though he'd concluded, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Excuse me, Mr. Richards—