Veterans Affairs Committee on March 20th, 2023

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome, Minister. I'm happy to be here today covering for my colleague, MP Rachel Blaney. I have some questions for you.

The first one is around the recent rollout of Veterans Affairs Canada in recently outsourcing two rehabilitation services to Partners in Canadian Veterans.... I'm sorry. I'm mixing up the words. It's specifically the PCVRS. I'm hearing that it's been going badly, to say the least, from union advocates, service providers, case managers and, most important, veterans. For example, Veterans Affairs employees say that it costs 25% more to outsource than it does to invest within, in the employees within.

I'm wondering if the minister is listening to these concerns that are being brought forward and if he will commit to cancelling this problematic contract. If not, why not?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much for your question. Welcome to the committee. Say hello to Rachel.

This rehab contract will provide 14,000 veterans with access to approximately 9,000 health professionals in around 600 locations right across the country. My job as Minister of Veterans Affairs is to make sure that we provide services for veterans when they need them, where they need them. Absolutely no one will fall through the cracks. It will be completely seamless for veterans and reduce administrative burdens on caseworkers. In fact, it will give caseworkers more time to work on files.

Case managers and everybody involved have been consulted. We have consulted case managers. We have consulted veterans. We have consulted anybody involved in Veterans Affairs on this rollout. I think I'd like my deputy to—

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Actually, Minister, I'm sorry. If I could interrupt, could I continue on the questions and ask your deputy questions in the next hour, if I may?

Thank you.

I'm wondering if you could clarify, Minister, why it was decided not to invest in hiring more permanent workers within Veterans Affairs Canada instead of outsourcing the rehabilitation contract to a company owned by Loblaws.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much. I appreciate your question and concern.

The fact of the matter is that this is a contract.... It's different at the moment, but the fact is that this is a contract that has been going on for a number of years. Different governments have had this contract, and now why we did what we did was to make sure we're able to provide these 14,000 veterans with different locations right across the country. In fact, they have 600 locations now, approximately, and if we need more, they would be added.

What we want to make sure of is that veterans don't have to drive 200 miles in order to have rehab or to see a psychiatrist or whatever. What we wanted to do, and why this contract is where it is, is that it provides for veterans where they need it when they need it. That is simply it.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

Have you been meeting with the union and, in particular, the Union of Veterans’ Affairs Employees? I'm hearing that the union has been raising alarms over the transition to the contract and has repeatedly requested a meeting with the minister, but has been unsuccessful within the last two years. Can you speak to that and why you're not meeting with the union?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much.

I've been meeting with veterans and people involved in the union ever since I became Minister of Veterans Affairs. I think it's vitally important to do that and, along with that, meeting with veterans and veterans' groups right across the country. If you're going to put programs in place, you have to meet the people they serve. That is of course what I have done, and that's what I will continue to do. Most people want this contract.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

I'm sure you can appreciate the importance, as well, of the position and the importance of the position of the president of the union.

Have you committed to meeting with the president of the union as well?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

As I said, I continually meet with union people and veterans and anybody.... I haven't set up a meeting at this moment, but the fact is that I meet with people all the time. In fact, I'm meeting with somebody in about three-quarters of an hour or half an hour. I mean, that's what I do. I meet with veterans and veteran organizations and people who help veterans all the time. That's what I want to do and that's what I will continue to do.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

To confirm, you have not met with the union president.

Could you answer yes or no to that question?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I'd have to check. I did meet with her. I can't just tell you when it was. Yes, we have met.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

The new system for rehabilitation services requires that Veteran Affairs Canada's case managers confirm the eligibility of the veteran and then refer the veteran to PCVRS. I'm speaking of things you already know.

Unfortunately, my colleague MP Blaney and others have been receiving emails from veterans who are describing the interview process within the rehabilitation service specialists process as taking up to three hours. They're being told things like their medication should be cut in half. This is clearly very upsetting for veterans who are reaching out for help.

Is the minister concerned about veterans who are not being treated properly within these systems?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I would always be concerned about veterans who are not receiving the appropriate treatment. I think my honourable colleague is well aware that we've discussed this with case managers, with union people and with veterans. What we want to do and what we are doing is making sure that nobody falls through the cracks. That's what we have done. That's what we will continue to do.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

Now, let's go to the second round for a total of 25 minutes. I would like to start with Mrs. Cathay Wagantall for five minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here. I look forward to meeting with the others who are here in the next hour.

Lifemark and WCG were given this contract for the rehabilitation program. Their requirement was to create a rehabilitation service plan unique to each veteran participating. It could include a combination of one or more medical, psychosocial and/or vocational rehabilitation interventions involving six key function areas: mental and physical functioning, social adjustment, financial security, employment and personal productivity, family relationships and community participation. It's the whole gamut there, Minister.

I just have a question in regard to the way the program is being implemented. The first year and half is an implementation period. I assume that time has passed. I'm just wondering how much funding, out of the $560 million, Lifemark and WCG have received to date. That's a 30-second question. I have three altogether. The last one, I think, you'll want to spend more time on. Do you know the amount?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I do not have the amount before me here, but the deputy would probably have the amount.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Okay. I will ask him later. That's fine. Are you not aware, Minister?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I'm not aware of the exact amount, no.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Okay. That's fine. That's great. Thank you.

On the $560 million then, I would assume you're not aware of the dynamics between those two companies and how much is being released in what way to each of those organizations.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Of course, there's always oversight on all parts of the—

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

What is it? That's what I'm asking, Minister.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

What I'm telling you, Ms. Wagantall—

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Could you answer in 30 seconds?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I'll do my best if you let me.

The fact is, for all monies that are spent by Veterans Affairs Canada, there's always oversight. In this case, there was an evaluation of what we could do in order to provide the best services for veterans right across Canada. We felt that if we could provide 14,000 veterans with access to 600-plus professionals right across the country, that would ensure that veterans were served appropriately. What we want to do is make sure we provide veterans with the services they want where they want them. That's what we're going to do.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Okay. Thank you, sir. You aren't aware. That's fine.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I am aware. I'm fully aware. I am. That's what we're doing.