Veterans Affairs Committee on March 30th, 2023

[Dr. Laura Kelly]

Actually, that was everything. Thank you.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Okay. That's good. Thank you so much.

Colonel Jardine, I thank you for all the years of service you have contributed and sacrificed. I know earlier you shared with us some of your personal experience of transitioning out of the Canadian Armed Forces. Would you be able to share a little more about whether there was any part of the process you found more difficult than some of your peers did?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

Thank you very much for that question.

In our scoping review, we found that women veterans earn less than their male counterparts post-release. I remember General Natynczyk speaking about purpose. If you don't know what you're going to do when you leave the Canadian Forces, it is very difficult to move forward, and that contributes to a sense of a lack of identity. It affects your self-confidence.

I could share a bit of my personal experience. I left the Canadian Forces after 37 years. I was a senior officer at the staff college. On the day I left, on one side of the door I was the deputy commandant of the staff college and in charge of all the people and money that ran that institution. In the space of one heartbeat, I walked through the door and I was an old lady with a box.

It's profound, and I know it's not just the military. In many other professions, people go through the same thing, but I think if we could do transition.... I know the Canadian Forces is working hard to change the way people go through that transition and to help people understand that they need to have a purpose. When you get up in the morning the very next day or maybe a week later, what are you going to do with the rest of your life? That is key to mental health, to moving forward and to financial security. All of those things are interrelated, and to me purpose is huge.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Do you feel that you were well supported after you were released and were trying to look for a career of your own or something that gave you a sense of meaningfulness when you were starting a new civilian life?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

I would encourage you to speak to the Canadian Forces transition group about how they do transition today. It has changed a great deal in just the past four years. Whether they do anything specific for women, as they do for men, would be a great question for them.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

I know that through your research in the past you have found evidence that in the military, the service impacts women very differently. What are the big differences, or even the small differences that may be overlooked, that we should know about?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

Again, I'll invite my colleague Dr. Kelly to share with you some of the things we found in the scoping review. The document from the scoping review we did captures all the research we were able to find. We published it in October 2021.

Dr. Kelly, perhaps you could add more to what you've already said.

[Dr. Laura Kelly]

Sure. Thank you.

I'd just like to acknowledge that the scoping review was authored by Megan Poole, an analyst at the OVO.

I'll try to get through as much as I can. Compared with men veterans, women veterans are more likely to report chronic illness, respiratory conditions and gastrointestinal disorders. They are two times more likely to have an acute injury from training. They are at a two times higher risk of central nervous system conditions. They have higher rates of depression and are more likely to have a panic disorder, social phobia, generalized anxiety disorder or PTSD.

They are 10% more likely to have served less than 20 years, and therefore they are more likely to have lower pension amounts. Compared with women in the Canadian general population, they have higher rates of arthritis, back problems, migraines, hearing problems, cancer and PTSD.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Dr. Kelly and Mr. Miao.

We will now move on to two short questions.

Mr. Desilets...

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Chair, I just want you to know that the screen in the front is not working. It's flashing on and off. It was fine before.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much. We'll have the technicians look at it.

Mr. Desilets, the floor is yours for two minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Colonel Jardine, you referred, again in one of your articles, to the fact that there was little research and data about the experience of women veterans of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, in particular. I think the article dealt only with that.

I believe it is harder to solve a problem when you can neither describe nor measure it, which is why research is important. Listening to Ms. Kelly, I learned today that one component of the research done by the Office of the Veterans Ombudsman dealt with that subject. I am very pleased to hear that.

Are there organizations outside government that work on research into women veterans in particular? Do you know of a research chair on the subject or researchers who take an interest in this field?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

I don't know all the researchers in Canada, but there is one I do know and the Office and I met with her last week. She is Maya Eichler of Mount Saint Vincent University. Also at Mount Saint Vincent there are Deborah Norris, who studies the families of members of the military, and Ms. Habibi, who studies child soldiers.

There are more researchers, but Ms. Eichler's name is the first that came to my mind.

I'm going to ask Ms. Kelly.

Dr. Kelly, do you have more names?

[Dr. Laura Kelly]

Not—

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Without spending too much speaking time on this, would it be possible for you to send the committee some names like those? We might be able to invite them to appear as witnesses. That would be very useful.

I have another question, which concerns an oddity.

In 1989, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal decided the case of Brown v. Canadian Armed Forces. You may remember the situation.

I know that was quite a long time ago, but it made quite an impression on me. The application had been rejected, and the argument relied on was that women would be bad for the operational effectiveness of combat weapons. I was dumbfounded. Even when I read it again now, I can't find the words to explain what I feel.

I have no idea...

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Desilets, your speaking time is up.

Colonel Jardine, do you want to make a brief comment on that, before I move on to another speaker?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

Mr. Chair, that happened in 1989. Since then, women have had access to all positions in the Canadian Forces.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Colonel Jardine.

Ms. Blaney, the floor is now yours for two and a half minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I'd like to ask a couple of questions.

First, one thing that was said in the report you sent to us today is that your office is consistently recommending that VAC publish the gender-based analysis plus. I would like to hear what that recommendation is about and what your concerns are. It would be helpful. I think it should be public as well.

Second, you talked about the satisfaction surveys lumping together spouses, widows and women veterans. I'm wondering if you could comment on what concerns you about that process at VAC.

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

We believe they do the GBA+, but we don't know how well it's done. If they published it, we could look at it. It would be transparent, and women veterans could see it. I think it would go a long way to improving women's sense of confidence that the department is looking to meet their needs. It's about perception as well. That is why we consistently ask for those analyses to be published.

The second part of your question was with respect to that survey. When I joined the Canadian Forces, I remember my first posting. It was to CFB Gagetown. I was a young officer, and my boss told me to join the officers' wives club. I went there and thought I had nothing in common with those women. They were the wives of the people I work with, and I was a peer of their husbands. I never went back.

I can't believe that today, 40 years later, in the survey VAC does for their clients—because they survey the families of veterans—they will group the answers from all the women. If you're a spouse, a widow or a woman veteran, you just get lumped together. To me, that's not right. We may be spouses or we may be widows, but we are women veterans. Our voice needs to be heard as a distinct group.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I think it's harder to measure the challenges if you don't hear the distinct voices.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Ms. Blaney.

Time is passing too quickly. The time we have for the first panel of witnesses is up.

Colonel Jardine, I too would like to thank you for your 37 years of service—you told us you made that choice 40 years ago.

The fact that committee members chose to give this warning clearly addresses the factors you mentioned in your opening statement. We do prepare for dealing with these situations.

Committee members, we have heard the testimony of retired Colonel Nishika Jardine; Veterans Ombud; Duane Schippers, Deputy Veterans Ombud; and Laura Kelly, Director, Strategic Review and Analysis Directorate.

I am now going to suspend the meeting for a few minutes so we can prepare for the next panel of witnesses.

Once again, thank you to the members of the first panel of witnesses for kindly participating in our study.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call the meeting back to order. We can now proceed with the second panel of witnesses.

I'll give some quick reminders to our witnesses. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click the microphone icon to unmute yourself. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

Members of the committee, as you know, we may have a vote.

You have received a copy of the budget for the study on the rehabilitation contract. Given that we heard from many more witnesses than anticipated, we have to briefly approve the budget again, because we held two additional meetings.

First, I would like to know whether committee members have questions concerning the budget request you were sent.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

When was that circulated? I don't recall seeing it, to be honest with you.

[A voice]

It was today.