Veterans Affairs Committee on March 30th, 2023

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I was surprised to see, in your literature review entitled "Women Veterans of the Canadian Armed Forces and Royal Canadian Mounted Police: A scoping review," the extent to which military service affected women veterans. That is one of the reasons why we will be devoting about 20 meetings to this study. You mentioned representation of women in key positions, the consequences of military service on their physical health and mental health, harassment, sexual trauma, income inequality, and a possibly stronger tendency to homelessness.

Can this distinction between the experience of women in the army and the experience of men be seen in the nature of the complaints you receive as ombudsman?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

No, we don't see any difference in the nature of the complaints.

You have to understand that the Department of Veterans Affairs has approximately 175,000 to 180,000 clients. We receive about 2,000 complaints a year. So that is a tiny proportion.

We know that the complaints we receive from men and women are the same. They relate, first, to the wait time for disability benefits, and second, to medical benefits and other programs. We can't point a finger at women and say it is only coming from them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

I'd like to invite Ms. Rachel Blaney to ask questions for six minutes, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses who are here today for this study. I've been wanting this study to happen for a long time, and I'm very excited and very thrilled that with the support of this committee, we got it with as many meetings as we have. I know how important this issue is.

My first question will come to you, Colonel Jardine. First of all, I want to say how much I appreciate the strength with which you have dealt with the issue in front of us today. I also want to thank you so much for the work you've done on the Merlo Davidson case. A lot of these women have reached out to my office and shared stories that I'm still finding space to hold in my spirit. I want to thank you for doing that work.

It's so important to validate those voices and make sure they are heard in the way you have heard them, and I'm very pleased to hear that VAC sounds like it will be honouring that. I'm looking forward to when that happens.

One of the reasons I wanted to study women veterans is that I am concerned about the fact that the attraction strategy on the military side continues to not be very strong. I fully believe there's a cycle here that we need to look at in terms of how women are doing in the military and how they're doing after their service when they're veterans.

You spoke in your testimony today about how the effects of military service on women differ from the effects of service on men. I wonder if you could talk about the work you've done and the service you have provided. Where do you see some of those differences, and what things should we be looking for as we do this study?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

In the scoping review we did, we went into a fair bit of detail, so it's quite academic.

If there is time, I would like to invite my colleague Dr. Kelly to go over some of that. Maybe it will give you a sense of some of the things we have found evidence for.

[Dr. Laura Kelly]

The research is limited. That's one of the main findings in the report, but it still had quite a few findings.

For example, we know that women veterans are two to three times more likely to be medically released, and they have higher rates of certain physical and mental health conditions compared to men veterans. They also report a more difficult transition to civilian life. One study found that women veterans' incomes declined by 17% to 23% in the first three years post-release, whereas men's only decreased by less than 1%.

Compared to women in the Canadian general population, women veterans have higher rates of certain physical and mental health conditions. Most concerning is that they have an 80% to 90% higher risk of dying by suicide.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

That's quite devastating.

I really appreciated the opening statement you brought forward because the fact is that there are different realities. For example, I've heard stories from veterans who talk about having PTSD and taking medication that has prevented their ability later on to have strong reproductive health. I've also heard from women veterans who have come forward and said that often when they're dealing with VAC, they hear things like, “Prove that this health issue you have now is related to your service.” I think one of the biggest challenges is that we don't see recognition from the different bodies.

I'm just curious if you could comment on this. There doesn't seem to be a process when you come into the system as a woman whereby your body is checked out so you have a frame of reference when you get to the other side. It feels like there's a really big block, from what I've heard from women veterans. I wonder if you have any thoughts on that.

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

That is a great question. I hadn't thought about that.

You're talking about your medical when you join the Canadian Forces. I certainly don't remember anything about reproductive health in my medical, but that was 40 years ago and I can't speak about what it is today.

In terms of what VAC is doing, when I first took up this job I remember getting a briefing from Veterans Affairs. They told us that they are reviewing the table of disabilities, which is the key document that captures all of the possible things that could be linked to service. That's the key, but I have not seen the updated table yet and haven't had any kind of update on it.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

This is a really hard, challenging study. Part of it, which you have mentioned, is that there isn't a lot of research or data collected, so it's really hard for us to know.

I've done a bit of a review on what's been done by our neighbours to the south. There's a lot more information there. We could learn from them for sure.

When we look at the relationship, the intersection, between VAC and DND, do you have any ideas about what needs to change so that these departments work better to serve women service members and women veterans?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

There is a CAF-VAC joint steering committee. I am not certain what the scope of their mandate is and what they look at. What they are doing jointly would be a great question for them.

I can't remember the second part of the question. I'm sorry.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

It was on the intersection between the two. As I said earlier, one thing that concerns me is that our attraction strategy for women on the military side is not going up. We keep setting goals, but we're not getting anywhere near them. Then we hear that women aren't doing well on the other side. Where is the intersection?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You have 15 seconds, please, Colonel Jardine.

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

I'll be honest with you, Mr. Chair. I'm not certain.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

We will now move on to the second round of questions.

Mr. Tolmie, the floor is yours for the next five minutes.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you.

I'd like to thank our panellists for being here.

I'd like again to recognize Colonel Jardine and thank her for her service. I appreciated the last time she was here in our meeting going over a number of issues we've been dealing with at this committee.

I have a couple of questions, and I'll ask Dr. Kelly the first.

Recently when I met with veterans, I heard they have been facing challenges trying to get care and access from Veterans Affairs. When they release from the military, their medical reports may say they are fine, but later on they start experiencing things like tinnitus, bad hips or bad backs. There seem to be delayed health issues.

Have you seen that? Could you please just give me a bit of input if you have seen that?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

I wonder if I could take that.

I've been out across the country, actually, for the past several weeks, and that is exactly what we hear, particularly with people who get out of the military on what I like to call the 30-day plan. They decide, “I'm outta here”, and in 30 days they are out. They just leave the forces. It's years later when they realize their knees are bad. That's probably related to the hundreds of times they jumped off the back of a MLVW or whatever it was. Then they look to put in their claims, but in their service health records there may not be a record from the military doctors on what they had been experiencing while they were in service.

That is a challenge. When I go out and about, I tell these older veterans, who are kind of my age, that if they are going to put in a claim today, they should get help getting that done. It is not evident from the disability claim form what is required there. The veterans service officers at the Legion are trained to do this. They are a resource veterans can use, or they can ask Veterans Affairs Canada themselves for assistance with getting those done. It is difficult to make that link to service when it's years down the road.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Yes, and that's what I've been hearing. A lot of the rejections in these files are based on their exit from the military when there were no health issues.

I appreciated your testimony very early on. We talk about the identity we have. It becomes our job and who we are. In the very early eighties, females were integrated into a predominantly male environment, and there was no clear path. Here's what I'm alluding to: In your experience, are there any other nations you've seen or studied that have faced the same challenges with this?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

A lot of countries in the world have women in their armed forces. Whether all occupations are open to women differs across the world.

In terms of how they deal with their women veterans, the United States has a completely different system. They provide health care directly to their veterans. Their understanding about men veterans and women veterans and their physical and mental health is far greater than our understanding. I believe we have looked to the south for information.

Perhaps, Dr. Kelly, you could speak to what we found in our scoping review.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I'm sorry, but on that, would you say it's a better system down there than what we have up here?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

would say that it's a different system.

Go ahead, Dr. Kelly.

[Dr. Laura Kelly]

Thank you.

The scoping review just looked at veterans of the Canadian Armed Forces and the RCMP, but we did do another literature review. One finding relates to injuries of the pelvic region, such as pelvic prolapse and pelvic floor muscle dysfunction. There were two studies out of the United States and one study out of Australia that found backpack loads and certain training operations did in fact lead to a greater incidence—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Dr. Kelly, I'm sorry. I have to stop you.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

You could give me another minute or so.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You have colleagues who would like to ask questions, Mr. Tolmie.

I'd like to invite Mr. Miao to take his five minutes, please.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses joining us today for this very important study.

Dr. Kelly, if you want to finish your answer to the last question, we can do that first.