Veterans Affairs Committee on April 24th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I now call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 47 of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs. We have a number of witnesses with us this afternoon.

We have the opportunity to go until six o'clock. If witnesses would like to break for five minutes, because I know you've been here since three o'clock, just let me know and we'll adjust that.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Monday, October 3, 2022, the committee is resuming its study on the experience of women veterans.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.

Before we welcome our witnesses, I would like to provide a trigger warning. We may be discussing experiences related to general health and mental health. This may be triggering to viewers, members or staff with similar experiences. If you feel distressed or need help, please advise the clerk.

I would like to remind all the witnesses and members of the committee to please address their comments through the chair.

I would like to introduce the witnesses that we are pleased to welcome.

From Coding for Veterans, we have Mr. Jeff Musson, executive director; and Elena Vazquez, master warrant officer, retired, student. From Helmets to Hardhats, we have Joseph Maloney, executive director; and Cora Saunders, outreach specialist, women and LGBTQ2+. From the National Association of Career Colleges, we have Michael Sangster, chief executive officer, and we have Patricia Henry, the military and veterans partnership program connect coordinator from Willis College. From Prince's Trust Canada, we have Kathleen Kilgour, senior program manager, and Kristin Topping, program ambassador.

I'd like to tell the witnesses that each group will have five minutes for their opening remarks. If you have much to say, let me know, and I will ask the members of the committee for unanimous consent to allow you to continue with your opening remarks.

We will start right away with Coding for Veterans.

Mr. Musson, you have the floor for five minutes. Please go ahead.

[Jeff Musson, Executive Director, Coding for Veterans]

Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you.

I'm the executive director of Coding for Veterans, an organization that partners with the University of Ottawa to deliver software development and cybersecurity retraining. The program is delivered 100% online.

Earlier this year, we had an economic impact study done on our program by Accenture. There were some great findings that came from that report, which I've circulated amongst members.

First of all, someone who leaves the military and gets a job versus someone who leaves the military and comes to our program and then gets employment will typically see an increase of about $30,000 a year in their annual salary. In addition, it puts them on a trajectory similar to someone who has a four-year university degree. The government, through either the ETB fund or other mechanisms to fund tuition, will actually see a return on their investment for that veteran in under two years. What's interesting is that the average age of someone in our program is 39 years old. By the time they retire, they will have pumped an additional $1.3 million into Canada's GDP.

There are really two key recommendations that we'd like the committee to consider, not only for female veterans but for veterans in general. First, can veterans access their education transition benefit after they have secured a date of release? Secondly, can Veterans Affairs Canada hold security clearances while students are in the retraining program to then be given to employers? Both of those recommendations are regulatory in nature and don't require a law to be passed.

I brought one of our superstar students along, Elena Vazquez, to talk about her release from the military.

[Elena Vazquez, Master Warrant Officer (Retired), Student, Coding for Veterans]

Good day, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. I was invited here today by Coding for Veterans to address the committee as a woman veteran who has just transitioned from the service to civilian life.

I am currently a student with Coding for Veterans in the cybersecurity program. After a full career in the Canadian Armed Forces in the administration and human resources field, I decided to go in a totally different direction. I would say that the CAF played a role in helping me find a new purpose.

My military experience as a soldier was gained through my time in the reserve force and the regular force in Canada and abroad. I proudly wore the army uniform for 35 years, and I had an exciting and fulfilling career during those years. I believe that the military has impacted me positively, and it helped me to transition with the confidence and tools to succeed in my post-military life.

Two years prior to retiring, I knew I was going to be released medically as I was no longer physically fit. In those last two years I attended a second career assistance network seminar, which is commonly known as a SCAN seminar. There is so much valuable information provided at these seminars that I actually did it twice in those two years. The SCAN seminar does a good job of preparing CAF members and providing all the resources necessary for retirement.

Attending those seminars really made me reflect on what I had accomplished and think about what could be next. I needed a new purpose, something that would be as exciting and challenging as the CAF.

I knew one thing: I didn't want to go back to administration or to manage personnel. From what I learned during the SCAN seminar, I carefully considered my passions and interests, and from that information technology seemed to be a good fit. Within the IT field, cybersecurity looked to be the right choice for me as it is a field that can be rewarding as well as challenging, and it's a field where there's a need to protect and defend the information and systems upon which everyone relies. It is not very different from one of the core responsibilities that CAF has in defending Canada and its interests, something with which I am very familiar.

I cannot speak for everyone, but my transition out of the military went very smoothly. The only thing that caused me some degree of anxiety was finding a family doctor. For the duration of your career you know that the CAF has you completely covered medically, but once you become a civilian, you are on your own. It's an eye-opener.

I was fortunate to have found a doctor 19 months after my release. I know many who have not been so lucky and I also know it is a national problem. This is, for me, the one area in which I would recommend a change. For many, leaving the military is difficult enough without the additional stress of finding a family doctor.

I am now well on the way to becoming a cybersecurity specialist. I have been studying for the last two years and I'm enjoying this new chapter. Although at times it's difficult, I keep soldiering on at my own pace.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, master warrant officer, retired, Ms. Vazquez.

Now let's go to Helmets to Hardhats, and I'd like to invite Mr. Maloney, executive director, to speak for five minutes or less.

Please, go ahead.

[Joseph Maloney, Executive Director, Helmets to Hardhats]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before the committee.

My name is Joe Maloney. I am the founder of the Helmets to Hardhats program, both in the United States and in Canada. I have been the executive director for Helmets to Hardhats in Canada for the past 10 years. I am not a military person. I'm a boilermaker by trade and also a lifelong trade unionist.

I started the Helmets to Hardhats program when I saw a large number of veterans transitioning from the military and not having a viable second career to pursue in civilian life to continue to support themselves and their families. Knowing that many of their soft skills and technical skills could be transferable into the skilled trades, I created the Helmets to Hardhats program with the intention to ease the transition process for veterans and the military community into a second career in a unionized construction industry that offered the highest wages, pension plans, excellent benefits and the safest work sites.

When a woman veteran joins a unionized skilled trade, she is immediately treated like an equal. Working under a collective agreement ensures that women are receiving the same pay, the same benefit package and the same safe working conditions as all their male counterparts. At Helmets to Hardhats, our program is open to all veterans, meaning that if you have completed basic training and have been honourably discharged, we will help you find a new career with one of the trades. Our program has always been available to women, and over the past 10 years we have referred almost 2,500 veterans overall, with 453 of them being women veterans who are interested in joining the trades.

Most recently, we've been able to expand our outreach into the veteran community, specifically recruiting female veterans. This work has been made possible with the support of Veterans Affairs Canada funding through the veteran and family well-being fund. We've been able to hire two female outreach advisers: Cora, my colleague who is with me today, a veteran herself, and Jamie McMillan, a journeyman ironworker.

Helmets to Hardhats recognizes that many females leaving the military might be concerned about joining another profession that is typically male dominated. However, Canada's unionized construction industry continues to break down barriers and biases to ensure that all women and gender-diverse individuals have the chance to find success in the skilled trades.

Helmets to Hardhats is also ensuring that our program is becoming more inclusive. We've continued to partner with like-minded organizations such as the Office to Advance Women Apprentices; In The Trades, a career pathway magazine; and apprenticesearch.com to ensure that our group's combined efforts are developing a diverse and inclusive skilled trades workforce, including outreach directed towards female veterans.

On top of expanding our recruitment efforts into the female veteran demographic, we're also exploring new opportunities to create mentorship programs to ensure that our female clients have allies and mentors as they transition into the skilled trades. As I said, Helmets to Hardhats has been very successful over the past 10 years, and we hope to continue to grow our program and reach more women veterans. One way we hope to do this is to follow a program that we did in Ontario recently to have female veterans and all veterans be pre-qualified for specific safety training programs that allow them to get on a construction site, things like WHMIS, Fall Arrest and confined space training, because right now you can't get on a construction site unless you have that training and that training can cost an employer up to about $2,800. If we could have veterans complete that training before they leave the military, that would assist them in getting hired quicker and starting their second careers a lot faster. It would also help our employer community.

With that, I'd like to hand this over now, Mr. Chairman, to my colleague, Cora, who can speak to some of her lived experiences as a women veteran and share some success stories of veterans who have recently joined our program.

Thank you.

[Cora Saunders, Outreach Specialist, Women and LGBTQ2+, Helmets to Hardhats]

Thank you, Joe.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to Veterans Affairs Canada for having us here to discuss the important topic of the experiences of women veterans.

As Joe said, I was hired just over a year ago, along with Jamie McMillan, to act as an outreach specialist for women and members of the LGBTQ2+ community within the military. May I say that it has been an honour this past year to work with Joe and the H2H team.

For background, I am a veteran with 32 years of combined service with the regular force and the reserve force, both of which I found very rewarding. Joe has already given you a snapshot of what H2H does to help veterans and their family members transition into civilian careers in the building trades, but I wanted to share a couple of success stories with you, including my son's.

My son's father was also—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Excuse me, Ms. Saunders. I'm sorry to interrupt you.

We already have more than five minutes, so I will ask members if I have unanimous consent to allow Ms. Saunders three or four minutes to complete her remarks. I know that we already have her speech. Is it okay?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Ms. Saunders, please go ahead.

[Cora Saunders]

My son's father was also a veteran and did at least three peacekeeping tours during his 28 years of service. Not very long after his last tour—a year or so maybe—he was killed in a traffic accident. We were divorced at the time. My son was 11 years old. My son experienced a lot of trials and tribulations throughout his teenage years and wasn't able to find steady employment, but with H2H, my son—who would be considered a military dependant—is now a member of the millwright union in Calgary, Alberta and is doing amazing. He is an advocate of H2H and tells as many people as he can about us.

Joe mentioned that we have partnered with organizations such as the Office to Advance Women Apprentices. Through that office, one of our clients, Diana Scott, a woman veteran, found our organization. She's an advocate for H2H and all women veterans as she encourages others that it's never too late in life to learn new things such as joining the skilled trades. We are currently assisting Diana in finding a rewarding career as a millwright in the unionized construction industry.

In my personal experiences, there were times when I wondered what my military experience would have been had I identified as a man or if I was married to someone of a much higher rank than me. One moment where I felt let down by my country was when I had completed five years of a posting and my son was struggling with no family around. I requested for us to be posted back to his home town of St. John's, Newfoundland. I made a formal request, as did another member of the unit at the time because his son was also not adjusting very well to the new location. This person was two ranks higher than me and was a man, but had only spent one year in this location. His request was granted and mine was denied.

I was told that I was not experiencing anything different from any other parent. Quite frankly, I was shocked and disappointed. The situation made me reflect on all my identities as a CAF member, a woman and a single mother. Not getting the support that I needed made me vulnerable. Why was my family being treated differently from my male colleague?

I had other moments in my career where things didn't go in my favour, including being involved in a sexual assault misconduct lawsuit. I don't want to get into detail today, but in 2011 after transferring through the reserve in my own province, I was assaulted. I was blindsided; it came out of nowhere. That incident made me question everything about the military and about people in uniform. I always hear people say that it happened because of the way she was dressed. Well, I was wearing my uniform at the time and I was going to one of my favourite functions, which was the soldiers' Christmas dinner. That night was ruined for me.

This incident will stay with me forever, but like many of the other women involved in the class action lawsuit, we will not let these experiences define us. No system or organization is perfect and we still have a lot of work to do. That is why I'm committed to working for organizations like H2H and communicating with VAC daily about what can be done better to assist women in the military.

Over the past couple of years, I have seen major improvements and I want to continue to be part of the solution, so that other women CAF members and veterans can continue to have more positive experiences and look back on their time in the military with pride.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you for your opening statement.

Now let's go to the National Association of Career Colleges. I'd like to invite Mr. Michael Sangster to present for five minutes or less, please.

[Michael Sangster, Chief Executive Officer, National Association of Career Colleges]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, committee members and fellow witnesses.

I'm pleased to be joining you again today to contribute to this committee's ongoing commitment to bettering the lives of veterans across Canada.

I commend MP Blaney for suggesting this study and for focusing us all on this issue. Studies like this bring attention to national associations like ours and force us to stop and think for a moment. We greatly appreciate it.

I'd like to take a moment before I get started to thank all of those who are currently serving in Canada's armed forces and the four women veterans who have joined us today to share their own personal stories. It's greatly appreciated. You have our complete support and thanks. Your commitment to our nation is truly inspiring.

Let me start by asking Patricia Henry, a retired colonel from the Canadian Armed Forces, to speak to you about her own personal experiences as a veteran accessing VAC educational programs and now as the leader of a NACC member institution supporting retired and retiring members.

[Colonel, Retired) Patricia Henry (Military and Veterans Partnership Program Connect Coordinator, Willis College, National Association of Career Colleges]

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to speak today.

My name is Patricia Henry. I served in the Canadian Armed Forces for over 37 years and retired as a colonel in 2019. Since my retirement, I've had the opportunity to go back to school and access programs from Veterans Affairs Canada, or VAC—in particular the VAC education and training benefit.

I joined a team of veterans, at Willis College here in Ottawa and nationally online, called the military and veterans partnership team, or MVP. The role of the MVP team is to assist veterans back at school. We are a team of three veterans on staff whose sole function is to help the admissions advisers, financial advisers and instructors, but most importantly to help the veterans with anything and everything that might be a barrier to their graduation.

Through our research, we know that female veterans prefer to speak to other female veterans, which is part of my role. We also know that a flexible schedule is important for female veterans. That is built right into all our programs, whether it be face to face, remotely or online. We connect with veterans during the admissions process and stay with them throughout their time back at school, offering peer support.

Veterans back at school reach out to us for assistance on a wide variety of issues. That includes helping veterans navigate their time at school during a family crisis, addressing issues that might arise in the classroom and assisting veterans in understanding and accessing support from VAC, just to name a few.

Finally, we have worked extensively with all the staff at our colleges on how to work effectively with veterans to help ensure that our schools are veteran-friendly. In the end, we have worked with hundreds of veterans back at school to help them complete their educations and find meaningful and gainful employment following their military service.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for the invitation to speak today.

[Michael Sangster]

Thank you, Patricia, for those words and for sharing your own experiences.

Willis College and Cape Breton career college are leading from the front on best practices supporting women veterans in our sector. I felt it was important to hear from a college on what they are doing today to offer specialized and focused support for women veterans. They have an extensive veterans support program, but I need to reinforce that they offer additional focused support for women veterans specifically.

With my remaining time, I'd like to focus on what we've done to support veterans since our last appearance before this committee, and we want to do more. Our last appearance sparked our thinking and led to our participation in national round tables and departmental discussions on how to better support veterans and active military. In the coming month, NACC and our members will be launching two new initiatives to support veterans and active military as they transition from services, and for the families of currently serving members. We'll be extending invitations to all of you to learn more about that when the news comes out.

Every day, employers, businesses, associations and trade groups are calling on us for well-trained, skilled workers. We believe from our experiences, and from the experiences of our colleges, that women veterans are the perfect solution for these employers.

To build on my last appearance, I would again strongly recommend that the government convene an ongoing veterans skills and training table, including regulated career colleges and employers, to keep everyone working and focused on these issues all year long, and that we ensure that a gender-informed, evidence-based lens be applied to ensure equitable outcomes for women veterans. Establishing a regular and ongoing working table is one way to ensure collaboration and keep us all focused on what matters most, which is getting more veterans into more jobs through the best training possible.

With that, Mr. Chair, I will conclude my remarks and await questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Mr. Sangster.

Now we will go to the final group, which is Prince's Trust Canada.

Ms. Kathleen Kilgour, senior program manager, you have five minutes or less, please.

[Kathleen Kilgour, Senior Program Manager, Prince's Trust Canada]

Thank you for having us here once again today.

Over the past 11 years, we have been collaborating with Veteran Affairs Canada and the Canadian Armed Forces, helping transitioning members and veterans bridge the gap between military service and civilian life. For those unfamiliar with Prince’s Trust Canada, we are the flagship charity for His Majesty the King. We focus on transforming lives and building sustainable communities.

Operation entrepreneur is a core program of Prince’s Trust Canada. We provide the transitioning military and veteran community with the training, tools, resources and opportunities they need to build confidence, develop networks and, through entrepreneurship, move forward with their lives.

Through our business basics workshops, we help veterans explore entrepreneurship, and we help them assess if this is the second career option for them or the one they're interested in pursuing at this time. We also look at how this small business will fit into their lives and their own vision for their future. Then, for those who choose this path, we have an intensive seven-day boot camp, mentoring opportunities and wraparound support, plus an entrepreneurial ecosystem necessary to make the business a reality.

Since 2012, more than 4,500 still-serving members and veterans have learned the basics of starting a business and discovering their own entrepreneurial mindset through our programs. More than 700 businesses have been started in every corner of Canada, from construction to consulting to horse therapy and everything in between.

Veterans who have graduated from our programs and veteran entrepreneurs everywhere have created jobs, and they've also used entrepreneurship to take control of their lives. For veterans, as we know, entrepreneurship provides three key elements necessary for a successful transition to civilian life: a new life purpose, a new group identity and a new opportunity to serve. Self-employment and entrepreneurship are very attractive second-career options for veterans, as they can leverage their military experience and skills in new ways. Additionally, it can accommodate mental or physical health challenges and offers a flexible alternative to traditional employment.

The average age of today’s veteran is in the low forties, around 41 years old. That is very young and mid-career for most people, with their best years still ahead of them. However, in some cases, including for many women, the impact of military service and military culture has taken a devastating toll on their bodies and minds. For women especially, this has resulted in a post-service future very different from the one they imagined for themselves and, by choice or by necessity, a disproportionate number of women veterans, 25%, are turning to entrepreneurship.

Prince’s Trust Canada is very proud to be creating these opportunities and spaces for our veterans to succeed. We will continue to advocate and invest in veterans who want or need to make entrepreneurship their next career and choose to take this path. This is a population of Canadians who are ready and waiting for attention, more help and your support.

I will now turn it over to Major Kristin Topping.

[Kristin Topping, Program Ambassador, Prince's Trust Canada]

Mr. Chairman and committee members, thank you for inviting us here today.

I was medically released from the CAF in July 2020, following 22 years of service. I suffered a traumatic brain injury in December 2016, and during the initial part of my recovery, I was diagnosed with a rare debilitating and progressive genetic condition. The cumulative effects of my medical situation resulted not only in medical and physical deficits, but in a complete loss of self and community, and a sense of institutional abandonment and betrayal.

In 2018, when I was told that I was being medically released, I panicked. I had no idea what I was going to do. I joined the military when I was 17. I grew up in the CAF and didn't know any different. I'm an environmental engineer by academic training, with a unique specialty that I thought only rendered my skills attractive to employers within DND, the RCMP or companies that produced military equipment solutions.

I've always had a passion for horticulture, and I've curated an extensive rare tropical plant collection. My friend convinced me to consider turning this passion into an avenue of self-employment.

Enter the Prince's Trust Canada.

Over the course of a one-day orientation and a seven-day entrepreneurial boot camp, I decided that starting a business was what I wanted to do. The operation entrepreneur program showed me that I had skills that would directly translate into my own successful business. They were skills that were innate and skills that were trained into people who have successful military careers. These skills include leadership, time management, project management, effective written and oral communication, task delegation and budgeting, just to name a few.

The Prince's Trust Canada provided me with the supplemental training, mentorship and, most importantly, confidence to turn an idea into a business. In June 2019, Sweetlife Flora, an e-commerce shop for tropical plants and plant care products, was opened.

Owning my own business has maintained my sense of purpose, and I found a community of like-minded people in both the entrepreneurship and plant enthusiast spaces. It took me years to realize how unhealthy the CAF environment was, specifically as a woman, due to normalized toxic masculinity and the ingrained acceptance of misogynistic behaviour.

Many women leaving the military lack the confidence to start their own business, oftentimes because of systematic mistreatment. The transitional training offered by the Prince's Trust Canada, for me, has been life-affirming, and I believe women veterans need this program to truly understand their full potential for a successful transition.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for your opening remarks and the work that you're doing to give more opportunities to veterans.

Now we're going to start the first round of questions. It's going to be six minutes for each member.

I'd like to invite Mrs. Cathay Wagantall for six minutes.

Please, go ahead.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Through the chair, thank you all for being here today and for what you're contributing to this study.

I heard of three different areas where I feel there are barriers that VAC and the Canadian Armed Forces need to work on to better facilitate what I was hearing today.

First of all, I thank you, Mr. Sangster, for mentioning.... We've had you all here before. You indicated that since then, you're beginning to put far more of a real emphasis on reaching out to women veterans. I appreciate your frankness in that, and I think we're in a good space if we move forward in that way.

A number of you talked about the adjustments in moving from full-time service into the reserves first, before moving on to something else, and that it was a bit of a softer landing or a direction that you chose to take. However, as it stands, CAF members who do this are not eligible for the education and training benefit.

To the women who are here, did any of you experience that yourselves, because you've talked about serving in the reserves prior to...?

Go ahead, Cora.

[Cora Saunders]

With the education benefit, there's a big pot of money and they're saying, “If you have so many years in the military, when you get out...”. That's over and above vocational rehab if you're medically released.

In my pot, because I spent 20-plus years there, there is actually $80,000 for me to retrain and do pretty much any course that I want at a college or university, which I have taken advantage of in the last two or three years.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Was it available to you as you left and went into the reserves?

[Cora Saunders]

Yes, they counted my time. I came out with a 27-year pension, so I had 20 years-plus service.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Was there a timeline on having to initiate that?

[Cora Saunders]

I was late out of the gate in starting that. I don't know if I was 100% aware of it when I got out. When I got out, I released from the regular force, so I sat down with VAC and they said that if I could amalgamate my trade into a civilian trade at a college, they would fund it, which they did and which I didn't do.

Later on, I discovered that there was an extra pot of money there. I think I have until 2028 to spend that money. I started to spend it maybe two years ago, and I'm going to spend as much as I can.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

That awareness of what's available to you is really key in trying to make those plans.