Veterans Affairs Committee on April 24th, 2023

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I acknowledge my colleagues, but I especially want to acknowledge the interpreters, as they work behind the scenes and are often forgotten.

I thank our respected guests for being here; it is rare to see as many witnesses as there are members around the table. Finally, I thank those who have served in the military.

Ms. Vazquez, we obviously get a lot of witnesses in the committee, but it is rare to hear them talk about their transition in a positive way, which you did earlier. That surprised me, but I was glad to hear that it's not all negative, as we often hear negative comments about the transition. Why do you think you experienced that transition in a positive way?

[Elena Vazquez]

I have to say that it's probably because of my preparation. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, I knew two years before I retired that I was going to have to leave the forces. So I had time to prepare for the transition, to think about what I wanted to do. I also had access to the training that was available.

In my opinion, attitude is also at play. I had a very positive attitude, so it wasn't hard for me to leave the forces. It's kind of like college graduation, when you throw your graduate cap up in the air and move on to the next stage of your life.

For me, preparation and attitude were the key elements.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

That's very nice to hear.

You also mentioned the fact that you had attended the preparatory training twice. This is indeed a two-day training, is it not?

[Elena Vazquez]

In the case of a medical release, the training can last up to four days.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

That's interesting.

Do you have any suggestions for women leaving the forces? Should training be improved or added to, so that women can prepare properly for the transition and go through it with confidence?

[Elena Vazquez]

As I mentioned earlier, I attended a second career assistance network seminar two years in a row. Honestly, I got so much information that I don't know what else could be added to it. Surely, things will be added over time and things will change. However, in my experience, the seminar is perfect for now.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Did you attend it a second time because you failed it the first time?

[Elena Vazquez]

No, not at all.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

That was a joke, Ms. Vazquez. Thank you very much.

Mr. Musson, we had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Blais, who told us about this fascinating program. I was going to call it extraordinary, but I'll hold back. That said, it is a really interesting program that I am sure meets the needs of the clientele, which is constantly growing.

However, I have one complaint: the Coding for Veterans website is not in French. In fact, Mr. Blais and I discussed this. It would be very beneficial for Quebeckers if the site were available in French. This would enable veterans to take greater advantage of the services you offer. Do you plan to have your site translated into French?

[Jeff Musson]

Yes. Unfortunately, I don't speak French, but to answer your question, by the end of this year, our program is going to be fully bilingual, not only on the website but also in the course content.

Another thing that's important to note is that in the tech industry—no different from, say, airline air traffic control—a lot of the terminology is English. We can deliver, and we'll have the ability by the end of this year to deliver and have instruction. Our website and curriculum will all be in French.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Okay. Thank you very much.

Mr. Maloney, you also have a very interesting website. I won't talk to you about French in this case, but about something else. There are a lot of very interesting testimonials on your site. I don't understand why there are no testimonials from women, except maybe two. How can this be explained?

[Joseph Maloney]

We ask veterans, when we refer them out to a particular trade or employer, if they could give us a testimonial in their own words. Some do and some don't. It's all on the honour system.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Yet your organization represents a high percentage of women.

[Joseph Maloney]

Yes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Okay. That was not a criticism, but an observation. I'm curious about that, because I wonder why women don't want to express their satisfaction.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

I will now give the floor to Rachel Blaney for six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I thank all of our witnesses today. It's been interesting testimony. I thank all of you who have served our country. I deeply appreciate your service, in whatever form it took.

Ms. Topping, if I can come to you first, I'm just trying to clarify the process for you. You talked about a lot of important things.

I'm wondering when you became aware of the Prince's Trust. Was it prior to leaving service, or was it after service? Could you, as a female veteran, explain to us what made the process and the training you took so helpful, and in what ways were they supportive for you?

[Kristin Topping]

To answer your first question—brain injury, a bit slow sometimes—I was still in the military, and I feel very lucky that I was still in the military when I found out about the Prince's Trust. One of the reasons was those SCAN seminars. Also, I had friends who were in the personnel selection trade as well as the public affairs trade. It was just luck, really.

The community that's provided by the Prince's Trust Canada is one of the most supportive communities I have ever been in. I was at a very low point in my recovery when, frankly, my friends had an intervention and told me to stop applying for jobs with the RCMP and DND, because I couldn't do them. When I went to operation entrepreneur, the group of people there were so positive and supportive, and I didn't get gaslit. It was enlightening. That's what it was for me. It was something that I didn't have at that time but that I needed.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I think this is an important point to pick up on. What we know is that the numbers in the CAF have not done well. We're not seeing anywhere near the goal we've set for ourselves as a country to see those numbers increase. Also, we're not quite clear, but we know that female veterans are falling off at some point. There is still not enough research about what's happening and what isn't working.

I'm coming back to you, Ms. Topping. You talked about some of the things that you, as a woman, felt were unhealthy and about systemic mistreatment. It sounds as if there was a whole process there. I think we're trying to have a very honest conversation. I accept that some systems work for some people and some systems don't work for some people, and I don't think we can compare. It's very important that we listen to the people who struggle, so that we can make those processes more holistic.

I'm wondering if you could talk about what didn't work and what you found in your new life, with the supports that you have, that did work, so that we can start to have that conversation about how VAC can improve when they receive female veterans and how, perhaps, the CAF can reflect on the work they're doing and how to change that.

[Kristin Topping]

First off, I should also point out that I was part of the MST lawsuit as well. I was sexually assaulted by a peer when I was 17. From that point on, I felt a need to adopt a sort of male-like way to act. Also, I didn't want my reputation to be affected by coming forward with what happened to me, so I didn't for 20 years.

As to the things that could be done better for women, this could be because my brain injury is so specific, but the research that goes into my health issues is male-dominated. All the studies are done on male patients, so nothing seems to correlate. I'm very lucky that I had a doctor in the military—not a military doctor but a veteran—who took the time to research what was going on with me and then kept me on in his civilian practice afterwards. I am one of the lucky ones to have a doctor.

I panicked because I felt as though I didn't have the support I needed from my chain of command, all male but for one female, who, I will point out, sexually harassed me and asked me to be more feminine in my interactions with individuals even as I was dealing with a brain injury. It's not isolated to just men.

I think that a lot of training should be focused on dealing with not only mental health but also brain trauma, because it comes in all forms, and on how your brain trauma will affect your mental health as well. That's where I did not have the support I needed, even though there are so many people in the military with brain injuries.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you for that.

I don't have a lot of time, Ms. Saunders, so I will ask you a question and give you more time to answer.

I'm really impressed with the innovation by H2H around hiring people specifically to do outreach and to work with women and LGBT communities. I'm curious to know whether there are any processes that you notice or any patterns that happen again and again with women veterans as you're trying to attract them.

[Cora Saunders]

When I took the role, I knew that it would not be an easy sell because of things that happened to women veterans and the LGBTQ community in the military. It goes back to the level of trust. It's not a hard job for me, because I've worked in the recruiting sector. I am a social person. I love meeting people. I love doing the trade shows and the conferences, but it's a hard sell.

Women keep coming back to how it's a male-dominated world. Even some tradeswomen that I've met say that there's harassment within the trades. I'm familiar with that, because I'm a veteran. I come from the military. We know it's happened. We know of the misconduct. We always have to be aware. We have to be vigilant. Like Joe says, there's....

I was reading online just a little while ago about all the training they do with their people within the trades. It's not like it's building trades and they don't do any training for diversity, inclusion or LGBTQ. They do all of that. We've done all of that in the military, but it's one of those things that I think will always be there, which is sad. We're trying to change this.

I know that, for a small population, 10% of the tradespeople in Newfoundland are women. I think that's one of the highest percentages in Canada. That's because we're so resilient and tough.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Cora Saunders]

It does help.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, and thank you, Ms. Blaney.

As I said at the beginning, I'd like to ask the witnesses if they would like to break for five minutes or if we can continue.

We have a lot of questions that we'd like to ask, so let's go for a second round of questions.

I'd like to invite the first vice-chair of the committee, Mr. Blake Richards, to go ahead for five minutes, please.