Veterans Affairs Committee on April 24th, 2023

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you.

Thank you to all of our witnesses for your excellent contributions to this study today. In particular, to those of you who have served this country, thank you for your service. To those of you who have shared your personal stories of traumatic situations that you've endured, thank you for having the courage to share those because that is important to us in our work as well. I know it's not easy to do and I want to thank you for that.

I'm going to apologize in advance. I'm going to move a motion and I'll explain to our witnesses in a second.

I'm going to move the following motion:

That the committee invite the Minister of Veterans Affairs to appear before the committee for no less than two hours, on or before Monday, May 1st, 2023, to answer questions about what plans the department has in place to ensure there is no disruption in services provided to Veterans and their families.

I'll move that motion. The notice of it was duly given.

I just want to apologize to our witnesses. I do hope that we can dispose of the motion quite quickly. I hope that will enable us to get back to what we're here to do today. I want to be really clear: I have a number of questions I wanted to ask. That's why I wanted to move the motion as quickly as I could in the five minutes that I have so that the vast majority of that time remains and I'll be able to ask some questions when we're finished with the motion.

I won't talk long on the motion. I will just briefly speak to it. I hope that all members can keep it brief if they need to intervene on it, so we can vote on the motion and get back to this because you have a lot of great perspectives to offer us. I want to make sure we can get back to it quickly.

Obviously, with what we're seeing right now, there are some concerns out there about the ability for services to be maintained for our veterans and their families with the labour disruption that is ongoing at the present time. I think it's important for us as a committee to address that.

I'm just going to quote really quickly from an article that I was reading that I think tells a little bit about this and I think is important.

I know that nobody wants to see a disruption. Certainly the union itself is prime amongst those who don't want to see any disruptions to our veterans, but there's an article I saw from the Canadian Press where a senior Veterans Affairs official indicated that:

...those applying for new benefits or trying to contact the department with questions or concerns can expect delays.

Those on strike include hundreds of adjudicators who are responsible for approving disability claims from veterans, as well as case managers who work with ill and injured veterans to help them find medical and retraining services.

There are also fewer staff to respond to questions through the department's national call centre and online portal....

Based on those remarks, it's fairly clear that there are concerns about why there might be service disruptions. I know that organizations like the Royal Canadian Legion, for example, have indicated their concern about the possibility of collateral damage. They've indicated that they are watching it closely and are ready to be there to help veterans if they face struggles as a result. That tells me they're concerned that there may be struggles that veterans and their families could face.

Also, Brian Forbes, who is the chairman of the National Council of Veteran Associations, indicated he's particularly worried about those with mental or psychological conditions and what might be made available to them in this circumstance.

I think that it's safe to say that wait times for veterans are the largest and most frustrating source of anger for those in the veteran community already. I hear every day from former service members who are talking about having to wait months and in some cases years to get their claims processed. Anything that might add to those delays and those waits is something that we all need to be really concerned about in this committee, and as Canadians broadly.

I think it's important that we hear what the plans are to make sure that veterans and their families continue to receive the services they need during this time. That's why we need to hear from the minister as to what the department is doing to ensure that happens and have an opportunity to question him accordingly.

I'll just say, again, that I apologize to our witnesses. This is, obviously, an urgent situation and one in which we all would want to ensure that veterans are getting the services they need. Because it is an urgent situation, I did have to disrupt today and I apologize for that.

I hope we can move forward and vote on this quickly and have this happen so that the committee can do, what I think, is incredibly important for it to do.

I'll just close with a plea to all of my fellow members on this committee. Our job is to ensure that everything that can possibly be done to help to serve our veterans and their families is being done. That is, really, what I see as our job as committee members here. I think in order to do that, when we hear a situation where there may be further delays and waits for our veterans and their families as a result of a situation that's ongoing and immediate, we absolutely must do everything we can to make sure it's addressed. Failure to support this motion is really a failure to our veterans and their families.

I really hope that everyone will support this, and we can move on quickly and get back to our witnesses.

Thank you for that, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Richards.

On your five minutes, you already have used 42 seconds, so you have minutes left.

I'd also like to apologize to the witnesses. It's in our routine procedures so we have to deal with the motion. I hope it won't be long.

On the list I have Ms. Blaney and after that Mr. Desilets would like to intervene on the motion.

Please, Ms. Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I, too, apologize and I want to say I will not be supporting this motion. I would be interested in entertaining it, maybe, at a later date. We are at a point where this strike has not been going on an extensive amount of time. We also know, from the union, that a lot of workers have been deemed essential workers, and we also know that the union is working very hard to connect to the minister's office to make sure that there is nobody blocking any veteran from getting services right now.

I would be interested, maybe later, if there was a cause, but right now, we know that women veterans have never had a study done on them, ever, in the history of this place. I'm making room for women veterans, and I will fight for that in solidarity with the brave women who have served this country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Blaney.

I now give the floor to Mr. Desilets.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

For once, Ms. Blaney is reading my mind.

I'm totally against—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I apologize for interrupting, Mr. Desilets.

Unfortunately, the bells are ringing to announce a vote in the House in 30 minutes. So I would like to ask for the committee members' agreement to continue our deliberations until five minutes before the vote. I also remind you that we can use our cellphones to vote, as well.

Do I have the consent of the committee members to continue the meeting?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

Mr. Desilets, please continue.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I was saying that Ms. Blaney read my mind. It would be nice if that happened more often.

I am absolutely against this motion. On the one hand, the minister would really not be the best person to answer these questions. On the other hand, and not to diminish the importance of services to veterans by saying this, I think we should only call the minister to appear on extremely important matters.

Moreover, we are only on the fourth day of the strike, and negotiations with this union have never lasted long. So I am opposed to this motion and, if there is no further input, I would like to move to a vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Darrell Samson, you have the floor.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I also wanted to request a vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Okay. We will vote on Mr. Richards' motion.

(Motion negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

So we will continue.

Mr. Richards, as I told you before, you've used 42 seconds of your five minutes. You have the floor.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

That's great. Thank you.

Again, I apologize for the interruption.

I'm glad we were able to dispose of the motion quickly. I'm obviously disappointed that we couldn't get the support of the other parties in the room. I think it's important to ensure that the services are maintained and not wait until they're disrupted and then try to deal with it. It's unfortunate, but I'm pleased that we were at least able to move back to the witnesses quickly. That's good.

Let me start with Helmets to Hardhats.

Mr. Maloney, you had mentioned, in response to an earlier question, the qualifications of veterans, about taking their qualifications from their military service and applying them to the private sector. Some of the work that you have done in Helmets to Hardhats ensures that there's opportunity in the trades, in particular, for those things to happen for veterans. I commend you for the work that you've done in that area.

Can you maybe just tell us if you have any barriers to being able to do that? Are there things that are preventing it from being done on a broader scale, even beyond the work that you guys do at Veterans Affairs, or at the Canadian Armed Forces level as well? Are there things that could be done differently or better to make sure that there is the ability for veterans to have those qualifications harmonized as they come out of the forces so they are able to access private sector employment?

Certainly, I've heard from veterans over the last while, for sure, about some of the challenges they seem to have in terms of having their skills and qualifications from the armed forces recognized. Obviously, the work you're doing has to be helpful in that regard. Is there anything that the Canadian Armed Forces or Veterans Affairs could do to better enable those skills to be transferred over, so veterans are able to access private sector employment?

[Joseph Maloney]

Thank you.

The way it works now, when a veteran registers with Helmets to Hardhats they basically tell us when they're being released, where they're going to be living and what they want to do. They can basically say they'd like to become an ironworker in Newfoundland or a carpenter in Calgary. We make that connection for them.

Now, a lot of them will carry the skills that they learned in the military and try to follow that same pathway in civilian life. Some of them will do that. When they do that, the veteran will meet with the apprentice coordinator in that particular area, in that trade, and they discuss that experience. Then they match it to the curriculum in that apprenticeship program for that trade. Many times, hours are credited to that program for them.

The curriculum in the military and the curriculum in civilian life are different. You have to test to Red Seal status in the construction trades in order to get a Red Seal certificate to allow you mobility across the country.

Then we get lots of veterans who just say they were doing that in the military, and they don't want to continue that.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I'm sorry, but I hate to interrupt you there. I'm short on time, obviously. We only have five minutes.

I wanted to specifically get into the ones who do want to be able to transfer those skills over. Maybe we can stick to that.

Do you have any suggestions on anything that the armed forces or Veterans Affairs could do—changes to their processes or information provided, etc.—that would help to further that?

[Joseph Maloney]

I know the transitional groups are working on this stuff. One area that would help a lot is to try to align what you do in the military to the construction industry curriculums. Right now, you're assigned a military code to do specific work in the military. Lots of times it does not align with what goes on in the construction trades and their curriculums. If you could get matched up a little closer, then that would make life a lot easier for a lot of people.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

That's great. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Ms. Henry, you mentioned, in response to a question earlier as well, a program that you have that enables spouses of veterans to access some of the same programs. I really love that. I would love to see that be more broadly applied. Is there anything that you can suggest to us that Veterans Affairs could do to better ensure that spouses are considered in these kinds of things too?

One thing that we've heard from veterans in particular, for example, is with education and training benefits. When a veteran is disabled and not able to maybe access those in the same way, could they be transferable to a spouse?

That's one suggestion, but maybe you have others. What do you think of that suggestion?

[Col (Ret'd) Patricia Henry]

I think it's an interesting suggestion. I think they'd have to look at the demographics and look at it. Yes, if you do have someone who is severely disabled, then why couldn't the spouse pick up on that if the veteran can't do that because the spouse will have to provide for the family if the veteran is disabled to such an extent that they can't? It makes sense.

One of the things I was going to suggest, and I'm not sure if it's exactly in line with what you were saying, is that they used to have something they were working on that was a skills translator. That's really what we're talking about here. This is what I did in the military. What does it mean on the civilian side? We do that at Willis College, but that is something that Veterans Affairs should be doing because you do have things.... I just wrote down a few examples: your leadership, your organization, your decision-making. How does that translate into civilian skill sets?

That is really what most veterans need: How do I take what I did and put it in civilian terms so that I can get employment and future training, or whatever it is that they desire? That would be the main thing.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

Now I invite Mr. Churence Rogers for five minutes.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks to all of our guests here today.

I have a certain number of questions I want to ask, but I seem to be all over the place here in my own mind. I'll try to get to some of the points.

When we started this study as a committee I had high hopes, great expectations, that we would uncover many things going on with women veterans across this country, and many of the challenges they face transitioning to civilian life and to jobs they want to pursue, and that we would also identify many of the opportunities that some of you talk about and we could make sure that we got that information communicated to these people.

We often heard that they weren't aware of some of the opportunities and challenges. That's why my expectation is, my hope is, that we're going to be able to go down that road, that we're going to present a study that's going to be filled with recommendations like the one Joseph just made about connecting military and civilian job skill sets so that it doesn't become a problem in the future, and that we can, hopefully with your assistance, provide solutions for many of these veterans.

First of all, Michael and Patricia, in your experience, what are the key areas that women veterans tend to gravitate towards in their military experience?

Patricia, you mentioned they want to do business or they focus on entrepreneurship. Do you want to comment on that?

[Col (Ret'd) Patricia Henry]

I'd like to explain why they do that. Most of the women, and not all of them but a large percentage of those who are in the Canadian Forces, tend to do administrative or personnel, which I think is most of us who are here, other than the engineer across from me—and a lot of them are in caring-type positions, like in the medical field.

When they get out, as Elena mentioned, they don't want to do that. They're tired of helping people, so they want to do something else.

This is why they're drawn more to business, so they're doing something for themselves, as Kristin mentioned, that they can control themselves. That's what we've found. That's what they want to do. They want to do something for themselves where they're controlling it and they're going to make it happen on their own without having to rely on others.

That's been our experience at Willis.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

That's the main question you tend to hear from these veterans when they contact you in terms of where they want to go in the future and things they want to do.

[Col (Ret'd) Patricia Henry]

I'm not sure that's the case with Kristin. Perhaps she could expand upon that, but a lot of it is about controlling their time and having flexibility. For a lot of us, we have families we have to take care of. In my case, I have a special needs child, so I do need flexibility. I have to be able to take care of him when required and be able to get him to the hospital or whatever else we have to do.

Like Kristin, he has a brain injury, so it's a lot of challenges. That's what a lot of the women are looking for, a little bit of flexibility so they can balance their lives. We don't have the option of just taking on the career and doing whatever we want. We have to make sure the food is on the table. We have to manage the house, take care of the kids. Again, I'm not speaking for everybody, but for the most part that's why the women you'll find have a lot more mental health issues, because of that pressure. That never goes away. Even when you get out of the military, all those family pressures are still there. You're still responsible for all of that.