Veterans Affairs Committee on May 4th, 2023

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for you, first, Ms. Rodrigues.

In the general population, the number of suicides among males is 22 per 100,000 and just seven per 100,000 among women, but obviously seven suicides is seven too many.

In the veteran population, there are 50% more suicides among men than in the general population and 100% more among women.

How do you explain that? Can you explain it?

[Dr. Sara Rodrigues]

I'm sorry. I missed the last part of the translation in English.

Was the question what explains that difference?

You'd like to know why there's a difference. Is that right?

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

How do you explain the difference between the male suicide rate and the female suicide rate?

More men take their lives than women in the general population and the veteran population. That is far too many suicides.

[Dr. Sara Rodrigues]

Thank you for your question.

I'm going to answer in English.

This is something that we have observed, as well, in our reviews of some of the literature. It's more so in the U.S., where there's a bit more information and data that women are twice as likely to be at risk for suicide. We haven't investigated directly in data that we have collected or in studies that we have done, but it is an observation that we've made as well, in our reviews of the literature.

In terms of what explains the difference, it is very difficult to say from the research that is available, because that research tends to be about prevalence rates. What we have observed—and there may be more literature available that I have not read—looks at rates and doesn't dig into why that might be the case. We have a sense of what the numbers are, but not the explanatory factors.

Dr. MacLean may have more insight into this.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Do you have any theories, Dr. MacLean?

[Dr. Mary Beth MacLean]

There have been studies of suicide mortality in Canada. As Dr. Rodrigues said, these focus on prevalence rates. They may also be broken down by length of service, age and other factors, but they do not focus on explanatory factors.

In Canada, the suicide mortality rate among female veterans is 1.8 times the odds in the general Canadian female population. For male veterans, it's 1.4 times.

What I'll make clear is that male veterans still have higher rates of suicide mortality than female veterans, which is also the case in the general population, but the rates are higher among female veterans compared to the female Canadian population.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

I gave you a bit more time because of the interpretation issues.

We now go to the New Democratic Party for two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, Ms. Rachel Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you. My next question goes back to Atlas and Dr. Rodrigues.

There was some talk about research being done on the needs of women veterans around health care. I think that's what I heard. I want to check if that's something that can be shared with the committee.

It's okay. If you don't know, I'm not going to waste time with it.

Are you doing any work on the issue of care for women veterans with PTSD during pregnancy?

[Dr. Sara Rodrigues]

We are not at the moment, but it is something that has been identified to us and shared with us as an issue that is important. It has been noted to us by members of the women veteran community that reproductive health, sexual health and mental health are inextricably linked in many cases. It's certainly something that is of interest to us.

It may be something that we explore with the working group for the research project that we are currently embarking on, so we are open to that possibility. Although our focus is on mental health, we would, arguably, be pretty careful about how we approach that. It's something that we're certainly open to exploring.

Thank you.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I'm curious about when a woman veteran has PTSD and gets pregnant. Do we have any national standards on what types of therapies or medications can be safe to use while pregnant?

I'm just curious because I've heard about this so many times, and it has long-lasting impacts.

[Dr. Sara Rodrigues]

Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to comment on what is known or not known there. I apologize.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Dr. Courchesne, do you know anything?

[Dr. Cyd Courchesne]

This is not just an issue for veterans. There's a prevalence of PTSD in the Canadian population. Certainly a psychiatrist would be better positioned to answer this.

All drugs have side effects and would be taken into consideration.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

Dr. Courchesne, I'm coming back to you.

We know that Atlas is a VAC centre of excellence on PTSD and, if I understand correctly, a DND sexual misconduct support and resource centre. Can you explain which is the federal government subject matter on MST issues?

How are messaging, research and supports for those impacted, including peer support, coordinated among CAF, DND, VAC and the VAC centres of excellence?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

I'll just have to ask that the answer be quite brief, please.

[Dr. Cyd Courchesne]

Thank you.

The sexual misconduct support and resource centre is the lead for all matters of military sexual trauma. We work in collaboration with them, and so does Atlas.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you very much for your brevity there.

We will now move to the next round of questioning.

The Conservative Party has five minutes for Mr. Fraser Tolmie.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to focus on and to question the Atlas group.

When you're in the military, and if you're in the search and rescue area, you go as fast as your slowest person when you're trying to find someone who is lost or downed. We've spent a lot of time focusing on veterans, and when we talk about veterans I think we've been focusing a lot on the military.

You brought up the RCMP. In your conversation, you were very surprised that you had 10 female RCMP vets who are going to be a part of your Athena project, if I'm not mistaken. Is that correct?

[Dr. Sara Rodrigues]

I'd be happy to clarify that.

We had 78 expressions of interest from women veterans of the CAF and 10 expressions of interest from women veterans of the RCMP. At the moment, we are reviewing those expressions of interest. We're hoping to meet an initial subsection or segment of that group to help us form that smaller working group.

I just wanted to highlight that we had an interesting or surprising proportion of expressions of interest from women veterans of the RCMP, because we know that they are smaller in comparison, in terms of percentage, than women members in the CAF.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I hope you're following my line of thinking. They are a minority of a minority, so I just don't want them to be lost in this. As a committee of veteran affairs, we're suppose to be looking after veterans of the RCMP as well.

Could you elaborate a little on their response and what kind of feedback you have had so far with them?

It's just very early stages. Is that what you're saying?

[Dr. Sara Rodrigues]

It is very early stages. All I will say at this time is that we had a lot of interest from women in the veteran community. We were really excited and overwhelmed by the enthusiasm of the response, and we look forward to working with the group.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Okay. I'm going to go back to Ms. MacLean.

I'll try to word my question a little differently. We've heard about how a presumptive injury list, like those used in the U.S., the U.K., New Zealand and Australia, would reduce wait times and make life easier for our veterans.

What are your thoughts on implementing this in Canada?

I thought I heard you say it would be difficult. I'm just wondering what the difficulty would be if it's already implemented in four or five different countries. Why would it be challenging to implement it here in Canada?

[Dr. Mary Beth MacLean]

It would depend more on conditions. The militaries are not the same from one country to the other. For example, skin cancer is more common in Australia. There is research on that in Australia that is particular to military veterans and under what conditions you can presume. There is not much research on the potential for particular presumptive conditions in Canada.

There would have to be a bit more research—probably a lot more research—to do the literature review to be able to generalize that information to the veteran population in Canada.

It's not impossible, but it's difficult.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

We have someone who is serving in the military, and they are under care in the military. Then they're released and they're dealt with by Veterans Affairs. They are the same person.

We keep hearing that tinnitus, hearing loss, hips and knees are all common things. Cancer, I understand, is a horrible disease, but these issues that are common could be a base for us.

I find it interesting that you would say it's difficult for us to even start with those issues.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

I'll ask that the answer be quite brief, please.