Veterans Affairs Committee on May 8th, 2023

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

It looks like you're in agreement with everything I've said.

[LCol Sandra Perron]

I agree on the absence of studies. As for the issue of finding causes, I wouldn't dare to comment. The reasons are probably the same as the reasons why no one talks about women's bodies. Why, in health training at the moment, is it mainly focused on men? Why don't we have obstetricians and gynecologists for women when they are pregnant? We're only just beginning to see a few.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Perron.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

I would now like to invite Ms. Rachel Blaney to speak for six minutes, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank all of you for being here to testify, and thank you, to those of you who served, for your service. It is deeply appreciated.

I'm going to come to you, first, Dawn.

May I call you Dawn?

[Dawn McIlmoyle]

Yes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

First of all, Dawn, I would like to say that in listening to women veterans and to the people who support them through this study, what I've heard again and again is how often they feel invisible. Their reality is not reflected back to them either in the CAF or in VAC.

I would like to thank you for working so hard to make yourself seen. It's a hard thing to do, and I really appreciate your doing that.

One of the challenges we have heard from women again and again is the lack of communication between the CAF and VAC. One thing you talked about when you were testifying, which really impacted me, was having to open up your files again and again so you could respond to changes to guidelines and get the benefits you were entitled to. Could you talk to us a bit about what that looked like, if that's okay with you? Do you have any suggestions about how that could be a lot more effectively done in the future?

[Dawn McIlmoyle]

I'm having a problem with the military trying to get my charges dropped. I have to pay the Department of Justice and say how I was wronged. It's the exact same thing with Veterans Affairs.

There are so many things they could do. I've had I don't know how many case managers. I have had to retell my story so many times since 1996—and there are other people.

There have to be streamlined methods so that you're not reopening these wounds. The onus should be on them sometimes. There's a lawsuit that came in. Maybe they should open some cases and not make the person have to go through it all again.

Someone could have helped me, but they said that no one could help me—even the Bureau of Pensions Advocates—until I wrote a letter. Well, I was sitting there writing it and shaking because I had already been through so many denials that I didn't want to subject myself to that again and set myself up for disappointment. It was extremely difficult to have to reopen those wounds just to get something I should have gotten way back in 1997, when it was awarded.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you for that.

It's hard to hear this, but I'm also relieved in a way that patterns are starting to be seen in testimony, because it's the patterns we see that we need to address in this report so that hopefully we can see meaningful change in the future.

This is the last question I have for you, Dawn. You talked about how, with services, it often feels like you're going to get your insurance, and you're fighting with them to get services. I know Cathay talked to you about sanctuary trauma, but one of the things I hear you saying—and I've heard it from lots of veterans—is there isn't very good outreach when things change. Veterans are not notified about the change and the next step they need to take. Then it's on you to figure that out, but at least they've given you the change.

Could you explain a bit about what you mean when you say talking to them is like talking to somebody who's giving you insurance?

[Dawn McIlmoyle]

It's very difficult sometimes. There are feelings involved. When I had my very first pension, it was 20%. I have had to fight I don't know how many times. You're talking to someone about the most difficult things in your life, and they're talking to you like VAC.

Even when I was trying to get my cannabis, the doctor from VAC was saying that they noticed I was suicidal back whenever, so they were stopping my prescription. I said, “Dude, I was suicidal because I almost lost my arm. I was so depressed.” It had nothing to do with the cannabis use. The doctor I saw prescribed it. How can somebody who doesn't even know me overrule a decision? Then it took months to get it all fixed, because some guy in VAC knew better than the doctor I had actually seen in person a couple of times.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

I'm going to come to you, honorary Lieutenant-Colonel Perron. Thank you for being here today.

Your organization places women veterans and serving women in the military along with civilian female spouses, I think.

[LCol Sandra Perron]

Yes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

We've heard that a lot of serving women and veteran women feel very invisible because they're often compared to civilian female spouses. Their realities are very different. I'm just curious about how that works. How do you deal with them differently?

[LCol Sandra Perron]

You're absolutely right. They are very different. When they come to The Pepper Pod for a lifeshop, their stories are different. Their career or their culture is very similar, though, in that they've uprooted their family every two or three years. They've made sacrifices. However, the spouses don't have the medals to show it. They haven't had the glory of a deployment.

There is a discovery when I do lifeshops, through that, where they get to share and understand each other. That is the power and benefit of having them in the same group. They have different experiences. Women have had deployment issues and some trauma. Some of them have PTSD. At the same time, the women spouses who have not served in the military have other contributing stories that make the lifeshops so powerful. They love understanding each other.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Blaney.

Before I go to the next round of 25 minutes, I'd like to know if witnesses are okay to go on with that.

That's great. Perfect. Thank you.

I invite Mr. Fraser Tolmie for five minutes, please.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to thank our witnesses for joining us today. Sometimes it's not easy for us to hear some of the testimonies, but to make changes, we need to. I'd like to thank you for your service.

Ms. McIlmoyle, I want to let you know that we have been hearing testimonies from mostly senior officers, so we're grateful for your participation in this testimony today.

The question I'd like to start off with is for Ms. Hughes from the Legion.

Over the last little while, whether it's been through a focus on studies of women in the military and of Veterans Affairs or just from men and women, we've heard several testimonies about the record-keeping at Veterans Affairs. Often their medical records are hard to find and difficult to transfer to health care providers, who might require them to look after the vets. We've heard testimonies from organizations that have done independent audits, such as the ombudsperson, the PBO, the Auditor General and our own committee, that say sometimes the records even within VAC are lost. They're very, very difficult to keep track of, which is very disappointing, because your medical file is so important for your care.

What do you think about creating a system that would give veterans more control over their medical records, especially when they release and they move to a different community? What are your thoughts on that?

[Carolyn Hughes]

There is a process, when you release, to obtain your records, but it is a very, very slow, long process right now. If it's for help with a disability claim or an appeal, it's usually much faster for us to get the records than it is for a veteran, because we have an MOU with Veterans Affairs. We can't release those records to the veteran because we're the third party involved in this, but we can write letters to the doctor. If, say, a medical opinion is needed, we can write a letter saying, “During service, this happened and this happened. This record is missing. Can you, given your opinion, formulate something?” We can advise on what we find; we just can't give copies.

That's often beneficial for veterans when they come to us. We get those records only with their written consent, so that's not for every veteran who's out there. We're more than happy to do what we can to speed up the process a bit that way.

I think now with electronic records.... I believe in the future, it's going to be a lot easier for a veteran to get a copy of their own records. All it's going to involve is downloading them to a memory stick, CD, DVD—something like that—and they'll be able to get them more quickly. Right now, unfortunately, they're still dealing with some paper.

I didn't disclose this, but I was a health care administrator in the military. I worked with some of those records, so I'm very familiar with them.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you for your answer.

You know, one of the things I noticed in the media a couple years back was that Legion numbers were going down. Has that changed? Has that trend changed and are they starting to increase?

[Carolyn Hughes]

Absolutely. In the last two or three years at least, we have gone up about 7% per year. What has been surprising is the age of the people who are joining. It is the younger veterans, the 20- to 30- to 50-year-olds. It's not so much the older veterans joining, but a lot of our younger ones. As I say to them, if you want to make changes in our organization, you have to become part of it and work from the inside.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

With respect to the number of women, would you say that—

[Carolyn Hughes]

I don't have stats on the number of women. We have a separate membership director. I will go back and ask him and then provide those.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Okay. That's great.

In my questions in the previous meeting, I noted we're seeing a lot of veterans released from the military who are too disabled to serve. When they're released, they're not able to acquire the benefits they should be entitled to. Would you agree that the Canadian Armed Forces and Veterans Affairs should be using a single standard for injury assessment and that they should get the same care? We were told it was too costly and too expensive, and I'd like to get your opinion on that.

[Carolyn Hughes]

I'm not sure. I know the major problem that I hear about from veterans who are releasing is the inability to find a doctor, which is essential to continuing any kind of treatment they need. Whether it's psychological, it's osteoarthritis in various body parts or it's a gynecological problem, that's the main thing. The services they get after service are not necessarily the same as what they get during service.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

We see that a lot of military, when they leave.... They've been in a community. Maybe they've been in Petawawa and then they decide, “You know what? I like Trenton better. I want to release there.” Would you say that's because of accessing doctors there?

[Carolyn Hughes]

No, it's just because accessing doctors anywhere in Canada right now is a problem.