Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 19th, 2023

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Again, if you permit me, I'm going to ask Mr. Harris to answer. I just want to give you a thorough answer to that question.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

I'd appreciate that.

[Steven Harris, Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs]

Mr. Chair, when information is missing in an application, we contact the veteran. We indicate what information is missing. We give them an opportunity to come back and provide the information that's required.

If not, essentially the claim is held for when the veteran is able to come back with the information required to be able to actually go through and adjudicate the claim. It is held—

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Okay. How do you contact the veteran?

[Steven Harris]

We contact them either by letter or directly through My VAC Account, depending on how they've contacted us, and we may actually reach out to them directly, in certain cases, to ensure that we can get the right information from them.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

When you say, “we”, is that their case manager?

[Steven Harris]

No, actually, it's a different group within the department who does that. It would be disability adjudicators, people who work in our centralized operation division who work on disability benefits.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

If we want them to build those relationships and that trust level with their case manager, would it not be better to have the case manager communicating with them?

[Steven Harris]

Often the case manager can communicate with them about that kind of program as well. They can work through their case manager. They can also work with our disability benefits team, who are more intimately involved in the actual decision with respect to a disability adjudication.

There are many programs that we offer. Rehabilitation works directly working with case managers. The disability program goes through a bit of a different stream, but all of those connections can be helped back through the case management group as well.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

I would think that we would be better to have one point of contact so that it's as efficient as possible.

[Steven Harris]

Except not every veteran has a case manager, or requires a case manager. Some may apply—

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Or a service manager.

[Steven Harris]

—for disability benefits and not require case management support. That's where we need to be careful to say.... It can't just be one stream, necessarily. There may be many that are appropriate for that veteran.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

I would suggest the ones struggling with responding are definitely in the hands of a case manager.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

Thank you, Mrs. Wagantall.

Now I'd like to invite the Honourable Carolyn Bennett to speak, please, for five minutes.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I, too, am a bit concerned about the bullying and the theatre around having the minister here. I think when Canadians or veterans are watching committees they expect us to work together and to be able to put veterans or Canadians first—not theatre.

It's been a while since I've been at committee, but I must say, I'm disappointed in the way some of my colleagues have been behaving.

I would like to follow up on a couple of the questions regarding the kind of paperwork involved. I chaired the subcommittee on persons with disabilities for five years and I know that some of the concerns there were the same. Whether somebody has an amputation, that doesn't tend to change. Whether somebody needs a wheelchair, that can change. People can end up with occupational therapy. They can regain their mobility.

However, I understood from the way the question is worded is that there new or different approaches to the need for a wheelchair and those kinds of things. I realize that from filling out paperwork, people are frustrated. They know this, but how do you actually sort out the fact that every two years things might change and that it's kind of—without making assumptions—regarded however as if things are exactly the same?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Again, I'm going to defer to Mr. Harris, but I think there are some conditions where, I think we would all agree, the condition is not going to change—point-blank—but there are some conditions that, perhaps, do.

Mr. Harris, again, if you would like to elaborate a bit on that....

[Steven Harris]

Sure.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

When a veteran has an established pension condition, they do not need to requalify for that pension condition. It's established in their file. They do not need to re-prove that as part of the department's work in helping to support them.

There are two reasons why they may come back and look for something else.

There may be a reassessment. In other words, their condition may have worsened. If their condition has worsened, they may come forward with documentation to suggest that it's worse and they may need access to different or more things. They may actually also be entitled to more compensation.

The other reason is that perhaps their circumstances have changed in other ways as well: not just from a request for additional compensation for the pain, illness or injury they've suffered, but also for additional supports. We often can reach out to veterans who have established conditions, not to ask them to re-prove it, but rather to ask them if they're doing okay and whether they need additional supports, whether that means additional treatment benefits, a visit from an occupational therapist who can help equip their house more appropriately for a disability or an injury they may have, or for other things as well.

There are reasons why we will speak to veterans about their condition. Often, it is not about re-proving a condition they have. Rather, it's about assuring that it's assessed properly and there are appropriate steps and actions in place to help support them.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Thank you very much.

In the concerns that I've heard, and again, it was the same with CPP disability or others of those things, how many are turned down the first time, how many are approved the first time and that in this 80/20.... Do we have numbers about the people who don't go on to appeal and who just drop out? Do we have a gender-based analysis on the refusals? Or sometimes people have more complex conditions, perhaps, that need more explanation.

[Steven Harris]

There are a couple of different avenues.

With respect to disability benefits, an individual who may not be successful in applying for disability benefits the first time has access to a Veterans Affairs-funded lawyer through the Bureau of Pensions Advocates, who will support them in their appeal to the Veterans Review and Appeal Board.

Generally, the stats are that about 30% of people who may be declined for their application will go through the the Bureau of Pensions Advocates and go forward with a case to the Veterans Review and Appeal Board. Sometimes they're counselled not to: There's not enough evidence, it's been determined essentially that there may not be a service relationship and they may not be successful. Many others, as has been indicated here, go forward to the Veterans Review and Appeal Board and are given a hearing and may be found favourable in those cases.

There are other appeal processes for other Veterans Affairs programs that involve treatment benefits, rehabilitation, education and training benefits. If they're not happy with the decision that comes the first time, there are many appeals processes for veterans to pursue, to give to another audience and have another opportunity for a favourable decision.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Harris.

Go ahead, Mr. Desilets. You have two and a half minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let's continue, Madam Minister.

The survey you carried out, while by no means scientific, was only intended as a tool for the jury. The jury read the results, but also had a wealth of documents in its possession. The jury was made up of experts, including museum directors and people who went to Afghanistan.

Do you really believe that a survey like that, with an image and a 90‑second video, is more credible than the decision made by a jury of experts?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Let me be very clear, Mr. Desilets: I never used the word “scientific” in the survey or the consultation.

The Department of Veterans Affairs undertook a consultation to listen to veterans, whether you call it a questionnaire, a survey or whatever. More than 10,000 people responded. Yes, 40% of them were Afghanistan veterans or family members, but a large percentage of respondents were veterans. That's why their wishes were so important to us. They told us that they felt the Stimson team's concept better reflected the mission.

I'd like to add that I'm extremely grateful to the artists for submitting their concepts to the competition. In the end, we had to choose one, and as Minister of Veterans Affairs, my priority was to listen to veterans.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Did the Prime Minister's office intervene?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I don't think so.