Evidence of meeting #66 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was program.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Director of Operations, Operational Stress Recovery, Davidson Institute
He's calling time. I'm sorry.
Liberal
Director of Operations, Operational Stress Recovery, Davidson Institute
I'm sorry. I'm a rule-follower.
Director of Operations, Operational Stress Recovery, Davidson Institute
I was like, “Oh, no, I made eye contact.”
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Let's move on. As I said at the beginning, we were supposed to take a five-minute break, but I'd like to know from the witnesses, including Ms. Taylor on video conference, if it's okay to continue until six o'clock.
Would you like to take a break? No? Okay. That's perfect.
We will now move to Mr. Casey for five minutes, please.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I would like to bring Lieutenant-Colonel Taylor into the conversation.
Lieutenant-Colonel, first of all, thank you for your service. Thank you as well for the work you've done with the Nichola Goddard Foundation. I'm pretty sure you and I have crossed paths at one or more of those functions. I was interested that you started talking about the Nichola Goddard Foundation as of 2018, when the steward became the True Patriot Love Foundation. You and I both know that there was a great deal of work done by the Goddard family prior to 2018.
I'd like you to speak a bit about her legacy, including what was done in Papua New Guinea for the birthing centres.
Manager, Community Engagement and Advocacy, True Patriot Love Foundation
What I can speak to is the fact that the Goddard family, of course, stewarded Nichola's legacy for the first 10 years. It then transitioned to True Patriot Love. True Patriot Love remains deeply connected with the Goddard family. In all of the events that we plan, we have a representative of the family in our planning committees. That connection remains strong. It's critically important.
As a veteran myself, having served for 27 years, and also knowing Nichola in the early part of my service, I know she represents a lot of hope, optimism, capability and pride for many of us. We're proud of her legacy. We can be inspired by her legacy and we are inspired by her legacy.
I know that there was work done in Papua New Guinea, and I know that a number of things [Technical difficulty—Editor] Papua New Guinea also included schools across Canada that have adopted that legacy. I am not poised to speak on the details of the Papua New Guinea birthing centre.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
In your opening remarks, you talked about invisibility. On May 1 the committee heard from Colonel Lisa Noonan of the Canadian Armed Forces transition group. I want to share with you what she said and get your reaction to it, given that you talked about invisibility.
Here's what she said to us:
That “invisible” thing that someone mentioned before is, I think, becoming less prominent. Now we're starting to look at specific programs, no matter what domain we're talking about, whether it be health services, transition services, recruiting, retention, etc., that are specifically geared to females in the CAF. That's a very new phenomenon over the last four or five years, in particular.
Given that your service is fairly recent—I understand you stepped away in 2021—I'd be interested in your reaction to the testimony we got from Colonel Noonan.
Manager, Community Engagement and Advocacy, True Patriot Love Foundation
I believe there's truth in that. I think that the culture of invisibility is changing.
I like to look at women's engagement and people with differences' engagement in the Canadian Armed Forces through the lens of three phases.
The first is the period when women and people of difference are demonstrating that they're not harmful to the institution. I lived through that phase in the nineties and early 2000s. People didn't know if women would be successful in the infantry and whether or not our presence would undermine cohesion.
Certainly I know that the people in this room who've testified know that feeling too. That phase demands silence from the member, because you're demonstrating that you're not harmful to the institution, so you do not bring voice to the things that make you different.
The next phase I call the phase of demonstrating that we are force multipliers. We are contributors to the organization and we bring value. It's in this phase that you see people as commanders and succeeding on operations, and you see successful integration. During this phase, from the outside looking in, things are looking much better, but this phase also demands silence from the people who are living it, because they're still proving that they are contributors to the organization.
My hope is that we are now into a third phase, where it is safe to bring voice to the things that make us different. In this phase, there is an empowered use of voice. In this phase, the institutions—both VAC and the CAF—shift, because they begin to hear with more clarity from more people of the differences and the unique needs that they have. In this phase, the institutions need to shift, and the individuals bring voice to it.
I think we are getting there, but I also think there are still instances of people becoming accustomed to silence, and that silence causes this culture of invisibility.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Taylor.
The next two members will have two and a half minutes each. First is Mr. Desilets.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
You have quite the résumé, Ms. Busson.
Over the past few years, have you seen an improvement in the conditions women in the armed forces experience?
Veteran, Senator and Retired Royal Canadian Mounted Police Commissioner, As an Individual
I can't talk about the armed forces, but I can talk about the RCMP.
There are a number of people—a relative of mine and other female members who presently serve in the RCMP—and I say with all the sincerity I can that they report a different institutional attitude. I believe the lady on the screen visiting us in hybrid format said the same thing. It's almost a phase three. The stars are beginning to come together, and I believe that women now have the strength to speak that they never had before and that the institutions have the motivation to listen. Nobody likes to fail.
I hear good things. I was at a regimental dinner very recently, and half the people there were females. They are so proud of the work they were doing. They are empowered and leading important things. Nobody sees that as amazing anymore, which to me is a big sign that we've come a long way.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
You said earlier that the Minister of Veterans Affairs made no mention of the RCMP when she appeared before the committee. How do you explain that? Was it an oversight, do you think?
Veteran, Senator and Retired Royal Canadian Mounted Police Commissioner, As an Individual
I'd like to think so.
I think sometimes, because the organization tends to be—how do I say it—a little bit more invisible, that Veterans Affairs thinks about the RCMP as much as they think about the people in CAF. That may be well reasoned. The outreach isn't the same, and I don't believe that people in the RCMP have the same awareness of what they can expect.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you, Mr. Desilets.
Now I'd like to invite Ms. Blaney to use her two and a half minutes, please.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you, Chair.
I would like to ask questions of the Davidson Institute. I have a couple of questions.
One is on the intervention made earlier. You spoke about how the numbers were higher and now seem to be going down. I'd like to know why the numbers are going down.
Also, could you explain how people are funded to attend your program? Does VAC fund any part of it? Is there ongoing funding or is it by person?
Director of Operations, Operational Stress Recovery, Davidson Institute
Maybe I could start to answer that.
Initially, we were allowed more contact with case managers. We actually were allowed to invite them to come to our program to meet us and to see what we do. A lot of them tried the modalities we offer and just loved it, and they started referring clients to our program.
There's been a ton of turnover at VAC. The new case managers don't know our program, so they don't refer people to it. It's up to the client. We don't deal with marketing, right? They have to somehow find out about it through word of mouth and then bring it to their case manager. The case manager says, “Well, I've never heard of it, and we just send people to the institution”, so part of the decline is because we are not allowed to contact these people to show them what we do or to send them information, as it's seen as soliciting.
There is no central register where they can readily see all about the programs. They've said that there are certain lists, but some of them are not aware of a list of the programs. There seems to be no awareness. It's just a brick wall. We don't know what happens inside VAC, but the turnover has been a major cause.
Do you want to add to that, Tina?
Davidson Institute
Yes. It's just to elaborate a bit, because I have a number of contacts with case managers, for example, in the region where we live, and they don't even know who's who on Vancouver Island, much less from province to province.
Eastern Canada seems to have no idea of what's going on in western Canada in terms of treatment programs, and we're not talking about just our program. We're in touch with lots of smaller clinics, and the default typically seems to be to these big addiction centres, which are simply not appropriate.
I almost feel like I'm missing a piece of intel. Why is this not happening? Why is there not a central registry? Why is there not a central database? I don't know.
Director of Operations, Operational Stress Recovery, Davidson Institute
It appears to me that the process is that the client usually tells their case manager they want to go to this program, that they know so-and-so who went there and their life changed. Then they have to take it to this interdisciplinary team meeting—an IDT meeting—and then there's another person.... We are not able to participate in these meetings. We don't know who the stakeholders are in that meeting, and there's someone in there, usually like a social worker or something, who seems to shut it down and say no to it, saying that they need to go to the standard one-size-fits-all thing, which is a concern for us.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you.
I'd like to invite Mr. Fraser Tolmie to take the floor for five minutes, please.
October 24th, 2023 / 5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK
Thank you, Chair.
To our guests, thank you very much for coming today. I know that everybody starts off by saying “thank you for your service”. We do genuinely mean it. It's important that you know that. We do appreciate the sacrifice and, often, the time away from your families and having to endure a lot of the things you've witnessed, whether you're in the RCMP or in the military.
Chair, I have a couple of questions. I'll leave the one about the fax for later. I don't know what that is. As someone of my vintage, I'm not too sure what a fax is. Maybe somebody can explain that later on....