Evidence of meeting #66 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was program.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Beverley Busson  Veteran, Senator and Retired Royal Canadian Mounted Police Commissioner, As an Individual
Anna-Lisa Rovak  Veteran, As an Individual
Adrienne Davidson-Helgerson  Director of Operations, Operational Stress Recovery, Davidson Institute
Christina Rochford  Davidson Institute
Eleanor Taylor  Manager, Community Engagement and Advocacy, True Patriot Love Foundation

October 24th, 2023 / 4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 66 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Monday, October 3, 2022, the committee is resuming its study on the experience of women veterans.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would ask that all comments by members and witnesses be addressed through the chair.

Although the room is equipped with a high-quality audio system, feedback often occurs, causing a significant problem for the interpreters. When you are speaking, please avoid bringing your earpiece close to the microphone in order to prevent feedback and help the interpreters do their job.

In accordance with the committee's routine motion, I wish to inform you that all witnesses have completed the required sound checks.

Before I introduce the witnesses, I'd like to issue a warning regarding our study. We will be discussing experiences related to mental health, which can be a trigger for people here with us, viewers, members and members' staff who have had similar experiences. If you feel distressed or if you need assistance, please let the clerk know.

I wish to remind the committee members that we will be continuing this study on Thursday. Next Tuesday, however, we will be meeting with two ministers, as per the motion adopted by the committee.

Despite the clerk's best efforts, the ministers can meet with the committee for only an hour, whereas the motion calls for two hours. Members need to keep that in mind, and if you wish, we can talk about next Tuesday's meeting when we meet on Thursday.

Our witnesses today are, as an individual, the Honourable Beverley Ann Busson, veteran, senator and retired Royal Canadian Mounted Police commissioner; Anna-Lisa Rovak, veteran; from the Davidson Institute, Adrienne Davidson-Helgerson, director of operations, operational stress recovery, and Dr. Christina Rochford, representative; and from the True Patriot Love Foundation, Eleanor Taylor, manager, community engagement and advocacy, by video conference.

We will start with a round of questions. We also have opening statements of five minutes from witnesses. I already have a copy of the statements from witnesses.

I will now invite the Honourable Beverley Busson to start.

You have five minutes. Please go ahead.

4:05 p.m.

Beverley Busson Veteran, Senator and Retired Royal Canadian Mounted Police Commissioner, As an Individual

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for inviting me here today to speak about my experiences in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. I want to stress that I am in no way speaking for the RCMP as an organization. I am appearing here as an individual and as a veteran.

As you may or may not be aware, in 1974 I was a member of the first class of women to join and graduate from the RCMP as a regular member. Although born in Nova Scotia, I spent most of my 33 years in the force in British Columbia, Saskatchewan and Ottawa. The first 12 years of my service were spent doing operational police work, with responsibilities ranging from general duty uniform work to serious crimes—including homicides and drug investigations—and also a fair amount of undercover work, which included criminal investigations, Immigration Act violations and cell plants.

I worked in small, medium and large-sized detachments, primarily in British Columbia, until I went to law school in 1986. After law school, my trajectory and my responsibilities were more focused on the management side of the force. I was commissioned in 1992, as the first female commissioned officer in the RCMP, and became the first commanding officer of a province, Saskatchewan, and later British Columbia. I retired as the 21st commissioner of the RCMP in 2007.

I understand the focus and goals of this study are, of course, about veterans. More specifically, I believe you are seeking to hear from witnesses who experienced impacts due to the intersection of women in a male-dominated career—i.e., the Canadian Armed Forces and the RCMP—and the interventions of Veterans Affairs.

I am sorry—or should I say I'm happy—that I have very little to offer from that particular perspective. In my 33 years in the force, I had not personally sought the assistance of Veterans Affairs. Perhaps I should have. I had seen more than my fair share of sexual assault victims, dead and injured children and murder scenes, and had attended many very stressful calls, especially in my first 15 years of my career, when I often worked alone. From a personal perspective, I cannot claim to have been sexually harassed, although in the first couple of years I have to admit that my sense of humour was tested more than once. I had the privilege, first to work with and then to lead, many of the most decent, exemplary people one might want to know. I understand that this was not the case for all female members in the force, but I cannot personally comment in that regard.

In my preparation for this meeting today, I watched the last meeting of your committee, held on October 19, with the Minister of Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence, Minister Petitpas Taylor, appearing with officials from her department. I was struck by the fact that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police was not mentioned once by either her or any of the members of this committee during her testimony. This is in spite of the fact that the RCMP was in active service overseas in the South African War, the First World War, the Second World War and many UN peacekeeping missions—including missions to Kosovo, Haiti and Afghanistan. The cenotaph in Regina and the monuments here in Ottawa hold the names of many who died in these conflicts that continue to this day.

Veterans Affairs is responsible for on-duty related medical and mental health issues for those serving in Canada as well. They also, of course, administer our pension, which has, unfortunately, made veterans of the force subject to the “gold digger” legislation, which affects both male and female members married after 60. I know many of these people, and I consider it an archaic and misogynistic law.

The only contact I had with VAC, as a regular serving member, was when they were the service provider for RCMP medical and dental care and prescriptions, which was primarily an accounting and reimbursement function. Today, I understand, the experience is not as streamlined, as the RCMP is now subject to the governing rules of provincial jurisdictions for their medical treatments. This, I believe, is not ideal, but I have no personal experience to offer since my retirement happened approximately 16 years ago.

As a veteran of the RCMP, I am now with the public service health care plan administered by Canada Life, and we all know the complaints of delays and bureaucracy that are attached to that transition.

Injuries incurred on duty are treated differently, and if a disability from an on-duty injury can be proven, a disability pension and certain benefits arise. I believe that this is still managed by VAC. Anecdotally, I do not believe it is an efficient or client-focused process as it relates to the RCMP. From my perspective, the RCMP does not have the same connections to Veterans Affairs as the Canadian Armed Forces, and the link seems to be getting weaker. Unless one is the recipient of a disability pension tied to an on-duty injury, veterans of the RCMP, beyond this caveat, to my knowledge, are not subject to outreach from Veterans Affairs.

Thank you for calling me to appear here today, and I hope I can be helpful in your study.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Thank you very much, Honourable Senator.

Now I'd like to invite Ms. Anna-Lisa Rovak to speak for five minutes, please.

4:10 p.m.

Anna-Lisa Rovak Veteran, As an Individual

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and honourable members of the standing committee.

My name is Anna-Lisa Rovak. I answered my call to service in my early teens. In 1983, I applied for regular forces at 16 and became basic in 1984 at the age of 17, just after graduating from high school.

To Serve
Identity stripped to a bare soul
Twisted and pressed to fit a single mold
Told how to think and what to wear
Punished for any individuality
Mind and body pushed to the brink of insanity
Soul is empty of pride and self worth
Praised only when obedience is met
Rewarded when orders are fulfilled in silence
Tossed aside when worth is expended
Ignored, belittled by those who still serve
Unless the heart remains a slave
And traditions are followed with no thought
Today, I'm
Searching for identity
Searching for the original me
Searching for a new beginning
Trying to fill the void
Disappear or Reinvent
Sometimes they are the same

I wrote that on February 20, 2022, after my second suicide attempt.

During my career, I wore three uniforms: army, navy and air force. My career included being a part of the first women at Royal Roads Military College, HMCS Annapolis and HMCS Provider, a UN tour to the Golan Heights and being one of the first of firsts in many postings within the Canadian Forces.

I was forced to medically retire on a physical disability. However, I was attending a psychiatrist weekly for over a year prior to my release. At that time, in 2001, there was no such thing as PTSD.

Just prior to release, I applied to Veterans Affairs Canada for a disability award, and there began my experience with VAC. In the past 22 years, I have attempted suicide three times. I have cut myself in ways to release the pain. I have lost contact with my daughters at their insistence, and have gone through two very dysfunctional and damaging personal relationships. I am trying very hard to maintain the relationship I am in right now.

I can honestly say that dealing with VAC has significantly contributed, if not actually caused, more of the more serious mental health events I have experienced in those past 22 years. I have been damaged and affected more than in my military career.

I was part of the sexual misconduct class action lawsuit and received the top amount, with an annotation from the lawyers that they wished they could have awarded me more. I have been, however, diagnosed with complex PTSD due to various situations in my career service.

It has been through the dealings with VAC as a whole, and with case managers and contractors in part, that my mental health has plummeted to the degree that it has.

One of the biggest reasons I am here today is to share that feeling of betrayal, the lack of self-worth and the feelings of abandonment and sheer hopelessness that my relationship with VAC has instilled within me. Without freedom of choice, without clarity or transparency, without consistency or respect to me and, finally, without security of truth, I feel there will be only more and more veterans being reduced in their mental health state to the point of self-harm and suicide, unless there is a change in policy and behaviour at the ministry of veterans affairs.

It is only through multiple courses and programs that I am even able to stand here today. One of those programs will be presented here today, and I cannot stress enough how important it is for a veteran to have a say in his, her or their own care. Why does VAC have the only word in my own care? Why does VAC demand that there are only one or two different types of therapy and discount everything else? Why does VAC treat veterans—especially women veterans—like we are imbeciles or ignorant, or like we are being spoon-fed?

I have suggestions, I have examples and I have personal experiences that I would love to share to propose and refute various forms of mental health care.

Again and again, they promised change. Again and again, I was promised safety. Again and again, I was promised retribution.

But the hands still touch
The words still strike
Blows to the heart, the mind, the soul
But they promised

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Thank you very much.

You will have the possibility to answer questions from members of the committee.

Please go ahead, Ms. Davidson‑Helgerson.

You have five minutes. It's your turn. Please go ahead.

4:15 p.m.

Adrienne Davidson-Helgerson Director of Operations, Operational Stress Recovery, Davidson Institute

I will yield the floor to Dr. Christina Rochford, the clinical director of our program.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Right. Thank you.

4:15 p.m.

Dr. Christina Rochford Davidson Institute

Thank you.

First, I would like to express my appreciation to the chair and the committee for providing me the opportunity to address the very timely issue of women in the military. In addition, I would like to acknowledge my personal heroes, these courageous, capable, patriotic women who have devoted their careers to keeping our country safe, both here at home and abroad.

It is an absolute honour to work alongside you in your healing journey.

As a note about myself, I'm the director of the Operational Stress Recovery Clinic in Vernon, B.C., under the auspices of the Davidson Institute.

In 2015, we were tasked by VAC to develop a specialized program for women veterans who are dealing with PTSD and, in particular, MST. This program was the first of its kind on the country. We consulted with VAC, with women veterans, did considerable research on the topic and determined the best evidence-based therapeutic approaches. We developed a model of care utilizing a bio-psycho-social framework. Autonomy and respect for the individual were and continue to be absolutely paramount.

The program is a six-week residential outpatient program, with a two-week follow-up and six months of intensive aftercare. The strengths include small groups, all women, daily trauma-informed therapy and self-regulation training, and many outside activities, from trauma yoga to equine therapy, music, art and float tanks. These are all what we call somatic strategies and are cutting edge in terms of trauma treatment.

The results have been phenomenal, both in terms of quantitative and qualitative data. We have that information on our website. The women have reported vast improvement and reduction of PTSD-related symptoms, improved quality of life, improved relationships and so on—so far, so good.

What has happened? The number of participants who are actually able to access our programs has slowed to a trickle. We receive many inquiries from women veterans, health care providers, etc., who want to make referrals but cannot navigate the process through VAC.

I'm not here to vilify VAC. There are many caring people who work at VAC, but the system is broken.

Let me relate a case in point.

We recently had a referral, a veteran, who had their proverbial ducks in a row. We calculated the number of administrative hours on our part alone trying to move this referral through the channels. It took 100 hours for one referral on our part. Goodness knows how many hours this veteran and all of the health care providers put in.

A common theme is that a veteran has the backing of their entire health care team—we're talking about psychologists, psychiatrists, medical doctors, counsellors, occupational therapists, people who really are in the know—but are turned back at the eleventh hour from exercising their choice of treatment program.

What typically happens is that they're referred to a large in-patient addiction facility, which is absolutely not appropriate to the population we serve. The veteran in question from the last example was turned down and instructed to attend a large addiction treatment centre. The veteran was devastated and was actually retraumatized. On admission to these programs, personal items and phones are removed, and prescription medications are doled out. One veteran even told me that candy, cigarettes and gum were removed. People were not treated with respect or dignity and were actually retraumatized. I have many stories, and I'll save you the details.

One female veteran told me she was roomed with a former gang member, an active addict. She was terrified. Another was roomed with somebody who was threatening her with box cutters. Again, she was terrified. Similarly, these are coed facilities. Women are placed with men with whom they have often had negative experiences. In another case, this summer, I received a phone call one evening from a woman veteran in the Okanagan. She was homeless. She found my name on the Internet and called me.

It's the Okanagan. We all know the Okanagan. In the summer, fires are raging. There's smoke and hazard alerts. You're not supposed to be outside. She was homeless and asked if I could help her. She was calling from a borrowed phone. She didn't have a phone. I said, “I'll check around and call you back.”

I checked around with my contacts, found her a bed at a local shelter and called her back. She said, “I can't go there. I've been to shelters before. I've been assaulted. I've been robbed. I'd rather sleep rough.” This person had no vehicle, no money and no phone, and she had to sleep rough somewhere in thick smoke with fire danger all around her.

The next morning, I called her case manager back. He's a very good man. I have worked with him on a number of occasions with other veterans. I explained the situation. The response was, “We can't help her until she settles down and stays put.” I said, “Until you help her to settle down and stay put....”

Am I done?

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Take 30 seconds to conclude.

4:25 p.m.

Davidson Institute

Dr. Christina Rochford

Okay, I have 30 seconds. How can I finish up here?

I'll just jump to the finish and, hopefully, our director of operations might have a chance, in answering questions, to respond.

We know better. When we know better, we can do better. The time to act is now.

I challenge all of us to take all that we've learned here, to continue to ask questions, to seek answers, to do ongoing research and, mostly, to act.

Thank you.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Thank you, Dr. Rochford.

4:25 p.m.

Davidson Institute

Dr. Christina Rochford

You're welcome. Thank you.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

By video conference from True Patriot Love Foundation, we have Ms. Eleanor Taylor, manager, community engagement and advocacy.

Please, go ahead.

4:25 p.m.

Eleanor Taylor Manager, Community Engagement and Advocacy, True Patriot Love Foundation

Thank you to the committee for the opportunity to contribute to this important work.

True Patriot Love is Canada's foundation for the military and veteran community. We work closely as a trusted partner with the Canadian Armed Forces, Veterans Affairs and federal and provincial governments.

As the national foundation, True Patriot Love works across the spectrum of issues facing our military members and veterans. We support our military families and children, especially as they navigate the issues of multiple deployments or locations away from their home supports.

We fund a range of programs to assist in the health and well-being of both serving members and veterans, including mental health, homelessness, employment and transition.

For those who may be injured or become ill, we contribute to their recovery and rehabilitation through sport, adventure and the arts, and we help with their reintroduction back into local communities post-uniform, especially with programs focused on volunteering and service opportunities, to maintain a sense of purpose, which we believe is key to a good transition.

Since 2018, True Patriot Love has been proud to steward and grow the Captain Nichola Goddard fund. The fund provides national funding to directly benefit community programs that support servicewomen, women veterans and their families. I knew Nichola and remain inspired by her legacy.

I served proudly in the Canadian Armed Forces as an infantry officer for 27 years, and left uniform in 2021. I remain proud of my service but note fundamental challenges facing women veterans, which can be addressed in two broad categories—one, a culture of invisibility, and two, unique needs. At True Patriot Love, we hope to play a role in addressing both of these challenges.

First, on the culture of invisibility, there is a pervasive sense among many women veterans that they do not belong in the veteran community. Many feel unseen, unwelcome and unsafe.

The veteran community is a reflection of the CAF culture but spans a significantly larger number of generations. For many women, by the time they leave the CAF, they have no tolerance for environments that do not embrace them for who they are. Many women are physically and mentally exhausted upon leaving the CAF, because they have spent years wearing clothes that didn't quite fit, both physically and metaphorically.

For women who have experienced sexual harassment, sexual assault and moral injury, separation from that environment is not just a preference but a health imperative. However, this leaves many women unable to access the benefits they have earned and puts them at greater risk during their transition and beyond.

We can help address this sense of invisibility by offering platforms for women to tell their stories, use their voices and take their place in the veteran landscape.

In 2018, True Patriot Love hosted the inaugural Captain Nichola Goddard reception. Guests gathered to pay tribute to women in the military and heard from a panel of CAF leaders. I was invited to speak at that event as a volunteer and a serving member of the CAF. I found it eye-opening and encouraging to see how interested and engaged business leaders were to learn of the unique experiences and leadership skills displayed by the women of the Canadian Armed Forces. The annual Captain Nichola Goddard Leadership Series is now hosted in multiple cities across Canada.

Second, on unique needs, what is also clear is that offering specifically tailored programming is a way to assist in removing barriers for women to thrive in their transition and beyond. True Patriot Love's all-women Baffin expedition is an example of such an initiative, which supported the creation of a well-being enhancing community of military, veteran and business leaders.

The Captain Nichola Goddard fund provides funding to directly benefit community programs that support servicewomen, women veterans and their families, helping to address the unique challenges related to military life.

Since 2018, the foundation has invested over $600,000 in community-based programs, including Women Warriors' Healing Garden in Ontario, Landing Strong in Nova Scotia, The Pepper Pod in Quebec and Team Rubicon Canada nationally, all offering programming focused on the specific needs of women veterans.

In conclusion, while there are exceptional programs being delivered in support of women veterans across Canada, we do not have a clear understanding of either the services available or the scale of the need.

We suggest that a collaborative gap analysis to drive and inform prioritization of resources is essential to ensure that we have the right services to meet the needs of our women veterans. Over the years we have come to recognize the unique circumstances faced by women veterans, and True Patriot Love remains dedicated to working with them to increase access, to support research and community-based programming, and to influence policy.

Thank you.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Thank you very much, Ms. Taylor.

I would like to say to all women veterans here as witnesses: Thank you for your service.

I have to tell you that around five o'clock, we're going to take a short break of five minutes, just so you know.

We're going to start the first round of questions.

Mr. Blake Richards, please go ahead for six minutes.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

Thank you.

Let me echo the chair in saying to the veterans on our panel and also the veterans who are joining us in the room today, thank you all for your service.

I want to start with you, Ms. Rovak. You made the comment that unless there is a change in policy and behaviour at Veterans Affairs, there will continue to be and many others will see many of the challenges that you have faced. You mentioned that you had thoughts and ideas about things that could change and that could help to improve things for others in the future. I know your time was limited, so I wonder if you could maybe start by telling me, if you were given the opportunity tomorrow to recommend one specific change that would make the biggest difference, what that change would be.

4:30 p.m.

Veteran, As an Individual

Anna-Lisa Rovak

The one biggest change that I could see immediately would be that as veterans, we would be allowed to converse with different members of Veterans Affairs Canada. One of the biggest problems that I see for myself—as well as for other veterans and members of the military, actually, who are trying to access Veterans Affairs Canada—is that we are allowed one contact point, and that is it. That contact point is the 1-800 number. We are not allowed under any circumstances to go to a person's supervisor. We cannot talk to anyone who has sent us a letter. We have the person's name at the bottom, but it says, “If you have any issues, please contact this 1-800 number.” When we call the number, we are not allowed to talk to that person.

I have been very fortunate to be able to talk to two different individuals within Veterans Affairs on a couple of different subjects. For both individuals I've managed to go through a back-door system to get to them. One individual had...I want to say “the audacity”, but it was worse than that. She told me that I was “privileged” to be allowed to talk to her and I was “privileged” to be allowed to phone her directly, and that this was a singular situation and I would never be allowed to do it again. That is disgusting. That is rude, and that is diminishing to who I am.

Women veterans, I have to say, are kind of special. We take on situations that most people can't even imagine. I signed a blank cheque. Even today I am willing to give my life for my country. That has never changed. My call to service has never changed, and yet I am being told that I am “allowed” to talk to somebody and that this is a great honour for me to talk to somebody who is supposed to be working for me and with me. That is insulting and rude.

The biggest change I would suggest right now, today, would be to our conversations and our way of contacting every single person within the ministry of veterans affairs. I would suggest that we be allowed to see who is where and what is where. As service members, we are trained very intensely on chain of command. We do not go above the next person in our chain of command without an actual requirement to do so, yet with the ministry we are not allowed to do that. I can't even talk to a person's supervisor to get information. I'm allowed to talk only to the person at the end of the 1-800 number. At some point, if I have time, I would love to discuss the My VAC Account, which I have been challenging for the last three years as being without a doubt one of the most horrible systems of communication I've ever experienced. It puts me at the bottom of a pile, and I don't even have another way to describe that. I feel as though I'm at the bottom of a bucket. Every single time I open up the My VAC Account in order to have a conversation with anyone, I feel diminished.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

I appreciate your sharing that. I'm sure it's not easy even to share and certainly far less easy to experience. Thank you for raising that, because the idea that there's this lack of personalization is certainly a sentiment I've heard from many veterans over the last number of months. I think there obviously needs to be better service. Thank you for highlighting that.

Chair, I'm going to apologize in advance to the witnesses we have with us, but I have to interrupt—hopefully only briefly—because I have a motion I need to move. We are, unfortunately, given only these two hours to do anything, including moving a motion.

I will move that, and hopefully we can dispose of it quickly and come right back to hearing from the witnesses we have with us.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Bryan May Liberal Cambridge, ON

I have a point of order. We do have time. We have committee business time for these kinds of things. I think it's wildly disrespectful to be taking up time on this.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

It's up to the member. It's his time.

Please go ahead.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

We'll hopefully be able to do it quickly, and then we can move right back.

I'll move this motion:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs conduct a study on reports that Canadian Armed Forces chaplains have been directed by the government to restrict or cease prayer at public ceremonies; that this study be comprised of no fewer than four meetings and that the committee report its finding to the House.

It's duly on notice and I move that now.

Again, before I speak to the motion—and I'll try to keep my comments fairly brief—I want to apologize to our witnesses. Hopefully we can deal with this quickly as a committee and move back to hearing from you, because it is important. What you all have to say is very important, and we want to make sure we get that opportunity.

I've moved the motion. I think it's quite clear.

I want to remind folks of some of the words in the poem In Flanders Fields:

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,

I also want to remind folks of our national anthem, where it says:

God keep our land glorious and free!

I share those two things for a couple of reasons, but mainly because we have a lot of concerns that we've heard from chaplains in our military about the inability they will have as a result of the directive that I referenced in the motion—that they won't be able to pray for the fallen or pray for those who've served this country at public ceremonies such as those on Remembrance Day, which is obviously coming very soon and is our pillar of remembrance in this country. They're also concerned that it may restrict things like In Flanders Fields.

It may restrict—

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

The member has a point of order.

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

No, it's not a point of order. When the member is finished, I would like to say something.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Please, go ahead.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

It may restrict our ability to hear the words to In Flanders Fields because they reference crosses. It may restrict our ability to sing the national anthem because it references God.