Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 9th, 2023

[Prof. Stéfanie von Hlatky]

On the prevalence of stereotypes and tropes that prevail in society when it comes to the way we perceive veterans, for women veterans the way that might manifest itself is complete lack of recognition of service, because—

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

But how can you change their side to fix that?

[Prof. Stéfanie von Hlatky]

Awareness-raising in the public-facing campaigns of Veterans Affairs is about having more women represented, absolutely. When employers have preferential hiring programs for veterans, it's really about socializing these programs with employers and employees to provide a welcoming environment and, also, tailored onboarding tools for veterans, who will transition to a dramatically different employment space...examples like that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. von Hlatky.

Now let's go to Mr. Casey for five minutes, please.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to stay with Dr. von Hlatky to begin.

We've heard some really compelling lived-experience stories here today, and given where you sit as the Canada research chair in gender, security and the Armed Forces, I can't help but think there must be something you heard here today to which you could say, “This is where my research can help.”

I'd like to start with the testimony of Ms. Doucet. She identified very clearly a problem with the necessity or the difficulty of establishing connection to military service and also the lack of research to allow her to make that connection, especially as it relates to the impact on her child. Can you speak to how your research can impact and help people with that kind of a story?

[Prof. Stéfanie von Hlatky]

Again, not being in the medical or health field, I want to point to research that's conducted by organizations like CIMVHR, the Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research where—

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

—which is also based at Queen's.

[Prof. Stéfanie von Hlatky]

It's based at Queen's. It provides national research opportunities through a wide-ranging partnership. I will say that when it comes to the cultural competency argument I made earlier, it also applies to health care providers.

When you have a veteran patient coming to see health care providers in the civilian system, that familiarity with the veteran experience might not be there. Queen's and the gender lab that I referenced earlier—in, for example, the work done by Dr. Linna Tam-Setto,—have developed tools for health care providers to develop that cultural competency to be able to interact with veteran patients through a gender-sensitive lens.

Those types of approaches, in which you build tools to empower practitioners, are consistent with the recommendations I gave for that supportive environment for veterans, especially women veterans, when they're seeking support services.

What I'll also say is that through the research, we did an environmental scan of the types of services that were provided outside of VAC, because to me there are obvious gaps. I don't think we can necessarily expect VAC to fill all of those gaps. That's not a realistic expectation, so a lot of non-profit organizations have popped up to fill those gaps. It would be great if Veterans Affairs, for instance, had a really up-to-date directory, by city or by region, in which the service providers that have emerged—for instance, through charities and not-for-profits—were listed so that this up-to-date information would be at your fingertips.

Those are the types of small adjustments that can maybe bridge some of those glaring gaps that have been made evident by the stories that were shared today.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Ms. Smith gave some powerful testimony. I'll ask you the same question about it. She touched on housing insecurity, military sexual trauma and the impossibility of transitioning when you're an island. How can your research impact people with that lived experience?

[Prof. Stéfanie von Hlatky]

I want to speak to the professional and social exclusion that women in the military have experienced that then carries over into their transition to civilian life. One thing we did at Queen's was to organize veteran transition workshops tailored to women, in which not only was the agenda of the workshops co-developed with women veterans, but also that our objective in hosting these workshops was to create a peer support network so that women would be able to meet other women with similar experiences and break that cycle of social exclusion they had experienced while in the military, and most likely while transitioning. Hosting these veteran-focused workshops was one way we could translate the research we do in a university setting in support of a community of women veterans. We had fairly localized workshops with women from Ottawa, Kingston and the nearby region.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Mr. Casey.

We have 10 minutes left. We will have two interventions, but before that, let me say welcome to MP Kurek who is replacing MP Wagantall.

Mr. Fraser Tolmie, you have five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for coming today and sharing. Some of the testimony we heard from the witnesses is very troubling, and not easy to hear, and certainly from this chair. I will maybe touch on that a little bit later on.

Time and time again at this committee we hear testimony from witnesses. Time and time again we hear about the machine, about Veterans Affairs and the military and how they fail to support veterans needing care.

Ms. Smith, you mentioned this care.

Care, for me, implies feelings. It implies comfort. Care implies support. Care implies understanding.

When I go into a doctor with symptoms, I'm working with them so that I can tell them what I am experiencing and find a course of action so I can be healed. It seems as though when I hear testimony from veterans like Ms. Doucet that the cart is before the horse. You're jumping through hoops explaining and re-explaining and trying to prove why you aren't well and why you got sick, instead of what is ailing veterans. In my opinion, that's not care.

Ms. Doucet, you made a recommendation that for anyone who has worked in the military with any form of chemicals, VAC should recognize this exposure to chemicals as a cause of symptoms.

Could you please expand on that? It is something I believe we should be supporting.

[Marie-Ève Doucet]

It's because for a lot of diseases, the causes are not clear. So if there were a list of everything someone in a particular trade was exposed to, then maybe they could be given the benefit of the doubt that having been exposed to something on that list.... Those chemicals evolve constantly. When I joined, I was using chemicals that are no longer used because they are just too dangerous—things like a fuel filled with benzene. Now the fuel is not as toxic as it was. I was exposed to that, but I have no proof.

I don't know. It would make sense that we have something we can go by to explain our diseases. So many veterans are affected by weird diseases that it's hard not to make a link, and yet we can't prove it.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Right.

That takes me back to that point of what I was saying. You seem to have to explain why as opposed to what you have experienced.

Are there any other areas of exposure that you think should be automatically recognized for someone who goes through VAC?

[Marie-Ève Doucet]

There's the exposure, yes, but there's also the mental aspect for sure. Obviously, 20 years ago, for a woman who joined the military, things were not necessarily easy. There are also the environmental factors on air force bases like Bagotville, Cold Lake and some others, where there are ultrafine particles that have effects on not only us veterans in the military but also our families.

I think all of that should be taken into consideration.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I have only a minute left. I thank the chair for letting me know that.

Ms. Smith, I'm not sure if this format is the right one to hear your testimony, where we give you only five minutes to be able to speak. I know that this was very, very difficult for you. It was very, very difficult for me and others around here. I just want you to know that what the chair shared with us about anyone needing any support afterwards was a genuine comment by him. We do mean it.

I want to say thank you very much for coming here and being brave and telling us what you went through.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Tolmie.

Thank you for the reminder to our witnesses that we will surely provide assistance, such as someone accompanying them, or a dog, or for travelling. If they let us know, we will take care of that.

For the last questions, we'll invite MP Wilson Miao to go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I too would like to thank all of the witnesses for being here today, especially those who have really had the courage to come to share their heartfelt life experiences with us. It's very difficult. This is the first-ever study of women veterans in this committee. It's especially difficult to hear so many stories. I believe there are more out there that we haven't heard. This is very important, especially in this week leading into Remembrance Day.

Through our previous studies, we heard about women feeling invisible. Now we want more stories to be heard, especially to find out how we can actually improve our current VAC system and the military. How are we supposed to recruit more into our military to serve our country when we're hearing so many untold stories of trauma and consequences? It's really hard, not just for everyone here in this committee but also for those who are watching this from around Canada.

I would like to thank all the guests for being here. It shows how important this study really is.

Through you, Mr. Chair, I have some questions for Ms. Smith.

Thank you again for sharing your experience. I know it's very challenging and hard. It takes a lot of bravery to share this, not just this one time but many times.

This is what caught my attention: How come those people or those who hurt you are still out there, not serving their criminal time? Have you ever thought about coming forward and really putting those who hurt you through our legal system?

[Jennifer Smith]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, actually—and this might also address some of what Mr. Desilets was trying to ask me. At the time, there was no mechanism for me to make any sort of complaint whatsoever. Those were Wild West days. One of the members pointed out the Somalia affair. I was living through that kind of time. It was not just happening in Somalia; it was happening on Canadian bases. It was nothing to show up to work with a black eye. Nobody asked any questions. It was “don't ask, don't tell”.

In my chain of command were often some of my perpetrators, so again, there was no way to make any kind of complaint that would be in any way safe for me. I'm still nervous about my safety. I do live somewhat in a state of an anonymity as a result of that. However—

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

You mentioned you also got a death threat if you decided to come forward.

[Jennifer Smith]

Yes.

I was tortured for three days and had a bayonet stuck in my chin. Absolutely, yes. There was no doubt in my mind that they would have killed me if I went out on that deployment to the Gulf if I sailed that day. So I made a plea to the chaplain for compassionate release, and got one and was honourably released.

Since then, I've just been in survival. It's survival now.

I thought that when I came forward to VAC with my claims and my experiences, that might cue somebody to say, “Well, this is unacceptable. Do you know who did this? In the cases where you do know who did this, here are some options; or, would you like to proceed further?” That was never the case. I'm still confused about that, because I have spoken about these incidents, these experiences, in several arenas and it's never been brought up to me.

I still don't know where I go. Honestly, I wouldn't know where to go with it.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Before we end today's committee, is there a way that we can help you to get the support you need so you can bring forward these injustices?

[Jennifer Smith]

I would ask you that question: What can you do?

I've told you my experiences. I myself do not know where I go with this if I want to see whatever kind of justice done. I mean, you have to remember that this was over 30 years ago. Some of my attackers are dead. Some of them have lived, have great careers and second careers in the government.

I don't know, is the answer, unfortunately. I would say that if you know what my next steps could be, then I welcome suggestions.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

I think this is also a good opportunity for us to find out great recommendations or suggestions moving forward for those others who cannot come forward, like you, within a certain time frame to get those people behind bars.