Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 28th, 2023

[Marion Turmine]

I'll do my best to answer your question, and I'll do it in French because it's much easier for me than English.

The Veterans Transition Network was established in British Columbia by psychologist Marv Westwood, following a discussion with one of his uncles. His uncle had a drinking problem. He was always very solitary and had fought in the Korean War. During the discussion he began to talk about what had happened in that war. Later on, his uncle told him that he should talk to other veterans as well because telling his story had proved to be extremely helpful to him. The Veterans Transition Network was the outcome, thanks to Mr. Westwood, and the end result was the creation of an organization.

Our organization has been recognized by Veterans Affairs Canada since 1992. The department supports us on an ad hoc basis, meaning that it funds the participation of each veteran who is eligible for the program. We are self-sufficient, which is a major advantage, as I mentioned when I was talking about my second recommendation on sanctuary trauma. As an independent organization, we provide a safe space for veterans.

I'm not sure whether I've answered your question.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Yes, you did. Thank you so much.

Ms. Hall, you made a statement that I need more of an explanation about. Actually, I would appreciate it if all of you, if you're comfortable, could give a brief perspective on this.

You said that it “took vision and political courage” for members of Parliament in 1970 to direct the RCMP to accept women into their ranks. We heard a similar comment about women joining the Canadian Armed Forces. This came somewhat from the outside in.

The word “direct” is a loaded word. Could you explain to me the dynamics around a lot of what we have seen happening, which we're getting testimony on now, and why that has taken place in relation to the way it was introduced?

[Jane Hall]

I love Canadian history—I'm a student of history—and that's a great question. Thank you very much for it.

As I understand, the reason the Government of Canada took that brave...and it was brave. It was a very controversial decision to direct the RCMP, which is not just any police agency. It's probably the most recognized police agency in the world. In policing communities, it's pretty much police royalty. It's tied to the national identity.

Really, the feminist activists of the sixties forced the Royal Commission on the Status of Women in Canada in 1967. They met for three years. That was the first time a woman had chaired it. They came up with 167 recommendations, and number 54 was to direct the RCMP to accept women. This was a bipartisan issue—as it always should be—and the Government of Canada stepped up and adopted and set up the status of women.... It directed the RCMP to do that.

The RCMP didn't seem to be in a big hurry to do it, because it really didn't implement it until we got Commissioner Nadon in 1974. That was at the same time the OPP were directed by the provincial government to open their ranks to women. It was a political decision that forced something that in society was....

I mean, I lived through it. I'm a baby boomer. I understand. It was a very macho society. Everybody knew that police work was a man's job. You had to be not just a man; you had to be a big and tough man. You were fighting with men all the time. How could women possibly do such a difficult job?

This was really pushing feminism all the way down the road.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

I appreciate what you said, and it really is effective.

My question is more broadly for the other witnesses as well. We are now, as politicians, facing the results of what I would call poor implementation of a scenario that was certainly going to have challenges, so along with directing them to do it, we are now dealing with—

[Jane Hall]

What mechanisms were in place to protect the women? There were none. We were the most studied group—speaking just for the women in the RCMP—starting in the mid-1970s. Report after report flagged the problems.

We had a toxic leadership issue—it always comes down to leadership—and the organizational response wasn't there. The parliamentarians who showed the courage to tell the RCMP to do that weren't doing the follow-up. In 1984, a division rep asked me to put in a submission to Ottawa. They were looking at affirmative action. Already it was hot.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you.

I'm sorry. I'm out of time, apparently.

[Jane Hall]

I talk too much. I'm a storyteller.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

No. It's very much appreciated. Thank you. I look forward to other answers as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

Ms. Miller, please answer within 15 to 20 seconds, because you don't have much time.

[Jessica Miller]

I can say that when women joined the Canadian Armed Forces in all trades in 1989, I don't think there was forward thinking about what happens once women start retiring en masse once they've served 20 years. We are currently in a 10- to 15-year period in which we've been seeing a large cohort of women entering into their time as veterans. No one thought about doing something proactively, so now we're just reactively trying to fix this problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

Now I'll invite MP Wilson Miao to start his six minutes, please.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses and guests for being here at our committee today.

I'll direct my first question to Ms. Hall. Thank you for all your years of service and the ongoing work to improve veterans' experience.

The recent 2023 women and 2SLGBTQI+ veterans forum reinforced the importance of actions that advance equality for under-represented groups, including women. How can we strengthen treatment and transition support and the recognition and care of women veterans from all backgrounds?

[Jane Hall]

On Thursday, my colleague Vivienne Stewart will be here. She attended that conference too, and she can probably answer that more fulsomely.

As for the transition, women make up 51% of the population. If it is good for women, it's going to be good for men too, and that's what we found. When women go into areas like policing, all of the adaptations and transformations the force experienced made it better for every man and for any minority group as well, because fair is fair. Women are like the canary in the coal mine.

What can we do? I have three specific goals for veteran women that I would like to see.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Please share them with us.

[Jane Hall]

Absolutely.

We will start with the elephant in the room. First, we would like from Veterans Affairs a clear written statement that all clawbacks from Merlo Davidson awards have been reversed and that no further clawbacks will be instituted. That's number one.

Number two is to be proactive. So many women were sent out to detachments where they didn't have a chance. They may have spent only a year or two and they're broken. This happened in the Canadian Armed Forces as well.

I can tell you that from the RCMP's point of view, women don't even know about VAC. They don't know that VAC is there to help them. Proactively, all women who were employed by the RCMP and are covered under the Pension Act should be notified in writing. They should be alerted about that and directed to somebody who can help them assess whether they have a claim and then help them walk through the claim. If they can send a letter about Merlo Davidson to every woman who ever worked in the RCMP, they can send that letter too.

Number three is to be proactive in asking the chairperson of the Veterans Review and Appeal Board to take a look at the existing claims within VAC for female RCMP veterans, because historically they've been given the lowest possible assessments. They're afraid to ask for a reassessment because the little bit they did manage to get, if they had one, is out of line, and if they put in the assessment, it says they may lose what they have. Their experience has been not to trust them.

As I'm told from a very good source, the Veterans Review and Appeal Board is fully staffed right now, so they're not dealing with a backlog. Plus, they know what's fair, so they could bring existing claims in line with what they would get and do that proactively.

Those are three things that I submit would be good.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Hall.

Today, I saw the report from the veterans ombudsman. Knowing that you are a member on the advisory board really helped with sharing this experience and seeing how we can make it more fair for our women veterans.

I'll go to my next question. As you may know, VAC uses gender-based analysis plus for its programs and policies. Can you tell us about the importance of integrating a gender lens when building programs and implementing policies?

[Jane Hall]

It is a great benefit, and I've asked them to take a look at it, historically, if they could.

I don't really have a full working knowledge of exactly how it works. I think it's a great tool, but I can't really answer that. I'm sorry.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Can you speak a little more about your experience as a woman in the RCMP since 1977 and tell us about the challenges you faced that were specific to your gender? To your knowledge, what has changed throughout this time and since your time in the RCMP?

[Jane Hall]

It's a large police force and it's a large country. There are so many different divisions. I was so fortunate. It was the luck of the draw that I ended up in B.C., which is E division, and happened into a detachment where the superintendent was a great leader and was very open to this idea. My first five years were in that detachment. We even had a second superintendent take over who was equally a feminist. In those five years, it was a brand new idea to have women in policing. We didn't know how to do it, but we figured we could do it and we did. We did it differently, but we did it well.

I never had any thoughts on that. I heard about other female members at that time who were in situations that were hostile. There was still hostility within that detachment—it was 120 members—but we were police officers. If you push us, we'll push you back, and if you can't push back, you're in the wrong job.

After you get transferred and end up in a situation where the leadership is either absent or toxic, you really get some humble pie handed to you. I did get that. I recorded it all in the book.

It's definitely a matter of leadership and accountability and rooting out systemic abuse of authority, harassment or bullying. We're not even getting into crimes of sexual assault. I would still be very curious to see how many.... I was shocked by Merlo Davidson, that this was actually occurring. I mean, we're police officers. We solve crimes; we don't commit them. However, sometimes we do. It's in my book. Sexual assault was something new.

With regard to harassment, it's about leadership and accountability. It's the organization's responsibility to make sure that the right leaders are identified, that they are given the appropriate education and that toxic leaders are dealt with, are eliminated, especially in policing. We have more power than the average person, and we have very strong personalities. We can do a lot of good, but the wrong person can do an awful lot of harm.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you for sharing that with us.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Miao.

Mr. Desilets, you have the floor now for six minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, colleagues.

And good afternoon to our guests, whom I would like to thank for their service to our country.

Ms. Hall, you talked about the concept of toxic leadership several times. Could you explain what you mean by toxic leadership?

[Jane Hall]

The first time I encountered it, it was just absent leadership. It was a section I went into that really wasn't busy. When you're in a detachment and the call is coming in and you're in general duty, you answer the call. Either you can do the work or you can't, so that's all well and good.

This was a bit different. It was a federal section where work was assigned. Right away I noticed there were only two female members. I was the second one in there. We got the worst possible files, just the worst of the worst. Anything that had any kind of flair to it that would get somebody promoted was going to men who were less well educated and who you knew from their reputation—and it's all about your personal reputation—weren't good investigators either. That was going on.

They would intentionally make a toxic work environment, like putting up pornographic calendars. It was harassment. It was, as I said, humble pie for me to realize that this, day after day, erodes your sense of worth. It erodes your sense of trust and also erodes your faith in the organization, because how can they let that happen?

A lot of women who had better options left. I had better options, but I was just too stubborn. I could have gone off teaching. When an organization does that to its workforce, people who have other options leave. Then pretty soon that organization is that much weaker for it.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

You're stubborn and you talk a lot, but it's very interesting.

I'm going to have to interrupt you, because I have some other questions. You wrote a book whose title is The Red Wall: A Woman in the RCMP. What does the expression “red wall” mean to you?

[Jane Hall]

The red wall, originally, was such a proud.... The RCMP is an amazing organization. Do not ever think that I'm.... If it wasn't for the RCMP, we may not have a Canada. It's one of our founding institutions.

We all realize we're part of a wall that was there to support Canadian society. We're like bricks. We had our own imperfections, but together we could hold the wall and we could protect society. That was our job: to serve and whatnot.

Later, I realized that wall can be a barrier. It can be so rigid; it cannot change. You can throw yourself against the wall, and all you're going to do is break yourself. In the end, that's pretty much what happened to me.