Veterans Affairs Committee on Dec. 7th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

I will now give the floor to Mr. Desilets for the next six minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening, colleagues.

I want to quickly go back to the previous vote. For me, it's a matter of procedure that I didn't vote in favour of the motion. I, myself, have amendments to propose, and I simply didn't want to take time away from our witnesses. I saw that it created a slight quid pro quo.

Ms. Michelin or Ms. Ranganathan, my question is for either of you: Do you recognize the physical or psychological problems caused by sexual assault as injuries?

[Shoba Ranganathan, Director, Programs and Services, Sexual Misconduct Support Centre, Department of National Defence]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, I think our clients have injuries that come from sexual assault. It's difficult for us to deal with such injuries, because the support we provide consists of care, but not treatment.

We don't offer treatment per se. We offer opportunities for them to be referred to community organizations, health services or to Veterans Affairs, where they would be able to get support for some of the physical presentations they would have. We do help them with the referral.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

Again, I'm not sure which of you will be able to address this question.

Justice Arbour tabled an obviously very interesting report. Recommendation 5 of this report states that sexual misconduct cases under the Criminal Code must be removed from the hands of the Canadian Armed Forces in order to be dealt with in the usual way by a civilian criminal court. Is that recommendation being implemented?

[Linda Rizzo Michelin]

In terms of recommendation five, it doesn't fall within the sexual misconduct support and resource centre in terms of our mandate. What I will say and what's really important is that, whatever approach is taken, it remains people-centred, and individuals who have been affected by sexual misconduct have that choice in terms of where they choose to go for some of the support they need.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I understand, but since you meet with victims of sexual misconduct, do you hear that this recommendation is being implemented or not? Have you heard of any civil court cases?

[Linda Rizzo Michelin]

Again, I can't speak to recommendation five, as that would be outside of our particular mandate. I would say that, for any individual it does concern, we encourage them to call the sexual misconduct support and resource centre.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Okay.

At this time, are you seeing fewer sexual assaults reported than a year, two years or even three years ago?

[Linda Rizzo Michelin]

Sorry, I didn't understand the question. Could you repeat it, please?

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I'll repeat it.

In your current role, are you seeing fewer sexual assaults reported than a year, two years or three years ago?

[Linda Rizzo Michelin]

In our particular organization, we're dealing with individuals who are coming forward with sexual misconduct incidents or situations. We're not comparing it with a year ago, in terms of sexual assault.

Any individual who comes forward to us is getting the support they need based on where they are at a given time.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Okay.

I have no further questions. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

I now invite Ms. Rachel Blaney to go ahead for six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate all the witnesses for being here today.

I am going to be directing my questions towards representatives from the SMSRC.

First of all, I know the SMSRC was established in 2015. We know some veterans and their families don't necessarily know about it. I'm wondering if you can share with the committee more about what you offer a veteran who has experienced military sexual misconduct.

[Linda Rizzo Michelin]

Thank you for the question.

All the programs we mentioned—the 24-7 line, the response and support coordination program, the independent legal assistance program, peer support, the restorative engagement program and the grant program—are accessible to women veterans and members of the Canadian Armed Forces. We encourage women veterans and CAF members—anyone who has been affected by sexual misconduct within our mandate—to come forward.

There is support at the 24-7 line to get immediate support from a trained counsellor on the line. If more in-depth support is needed, we have response and support coordination, where an assigned coordinator will be able to help the individual with medical appointments and accompaniment. It's a more supportive type of counselling.

The independent legal assistance program is also available to veterans. If someone has incurred eligible legal costs and requires some reimbursement, we have that first phase available to them. In our peer support program, we will be launching new formal group sessions in the new year, so we're encouraging individuals to come forward there.

If an individual is also part of the class action lawsuit, there is an opportunity for class members to come forward through a restorative process, where they can share their stories and help in terms of moving forward culture change in the broader defence team.

There are several various programs. Those are just to name a few. I would encourage individuals who have been victims or who have experienced sexual misconduct to come forward to the SMSRC.

Perhaps I'll add one more thing. If we can't provide the services, we also refer out. We have quite a wide network across the country, in terms of other organizations and support services we refer individuals to.

[Shoba Ranganathan]

I could add to that.

Sometimes our clients don't know what they want. I think that's something to state. If they don't know what they want, but they've had an experience with sexual misconduct, they can reach out to us. Perhaps we can help them find the right program for them. It's not necessarily one-size-fits-all. Not everybody who comes has response and support coordination or goes to peer support. However, when they talk to our counsellors, they get a better understanding of what we can do to help them with their journey, whether it's facilitating reporting or referring them to a case manager to attend appointments. Really, it's individualized care based on their particular needs.

If they call us, we can help them figure out the best thing for them.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you. That's very helpful.

We've heard testimony—Dr. Courchesne is here again today—that the Department of Veterans Affairs is working in partnership with the SMSRC.

Could the representatives from the SMSRC please answer?

How closely are the two departments aligned? Are they able to talk openly with each other? Do they see any challenges that make this difficult sometimes? I don't say that as a criticism. I think, from what we've heard clearly from a lot of women veterans during this time in committee, there seems to be a gap. They don't necessarily know about these services.

I'm wondering whether, from your perspective, there is anything that could be done better to support women veterans in getting the support you provide, which sounds comprehensive.

[Linda Rizzo Michelin]

I guess there are two parts to the question. On the first piece, the collaboration with Veterans Affairs Canada, I will say, on the peer support program that is being developed right now, the two organizations are working very closely to establish a peer support program that is going to meet, I'm going to say, various needs within it. There are three different lines within that program. There's the discussion platform, formal group sessions and those types of things. That collaboration has been working for over two years now, very closely, to establish those pieces, so that is in good motion to move forward.

On the latter part of the question, in terms of challenges, it's more about the time to ensure that what is developed is always people-centric and very much centred on what the community needs are, and that takes time. If we're being trauma-informed in our approach to the development of programs—which we are doing very clearly, and we're moving forward on that—it takes time. We want to make sure that we are connecting with veteran women and those who have been affected to make sure that whatever is developed is going to meet their needs.

I would say one of the biggest challenges is ensuring that what we put in place is trauma-informed and client-centred and meets the needs of the client, and that takes time. I would say that's probably the biggest challenge we face.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you for that.

My last question is this. Is there any engagement in having the staff who work with veterans at VAC trained?

You talked about being trauma-informed, and we've heard a lot of times that veterans feel traumatized when they reach out to VAC. I'm just wondering if there's any work happening to increase training—from your perspective, wisdom and knowledge base—in supporting women who have experienced sexual trauma.

[Linda Rizzo Michelin]

Cyd, do you want to take that?

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

No. I don't want Cyd to take that. If I could have you take that—

[Linda Rizzo Michelin]

I'm sorry. I thought you meant if you were....

I will say, in terms of our interaction with the team at VAC, it's been a very close relationship. The individuals who are hired within the program to do the peer support are qualified. Some have a background in social work, so they already have expertise in some of those areas. We're very careful within that to make sure that the individuals who are part of the peer support program have that trauma-informed approach and that they have strong mental health workers, who are all part of what we are developing together as we go forward.

I can speak to where our connection is with it, and that has been very positive in terms of moving forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Blaney.

Now let's start the second round of questions. I invite MP Cathay Wagantall to take her five minutes, please.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Just in general, one of the things that's negatively affecting all veterans is that their own health records are being kept from them. In this whole process of a smooth transition, right from back in 2014, one issue that continually comes up is that they do not have access to their files. Health records cannot be shared with a third party in Canada, so when a member of the CAF releases from the forces and their medical files are sent to VAC, the member cannot access their own files since VAC is interpreting this policy strictly and considers the member to be a third party.

This is not acceptable. I don't know....

Dr. Courchesne, you have been in your role for a decade now, and this issue still persists. We had a witness very recently who was severely gang-raped and faced terrible circumstances. It took a long time to get VAC to respond, and eventually, it was the pension advocates who discovered that there were files associated with this that were hidden away from her in an area that was not accessible. She wasn't even aware that they existed.

This is very disconcerting, especially when we're talking about women and the whole issue of military sexual trauma. We know there's been a lot of cover-up, and they are not getting the care they need, I believe, because they do not have access to those files.

Dr. Courchesne, can you speak to that? I would then like to get the perspective of the acronym over there, please.

[Dr. Cyd Courchesne]

Thank you.

I'm sorry. I think everything froze for a while and the audio dropped.

With respect to medical records, upon release, all service members—and I went through that process—can access their medical records. They have to go through the director to get access to information and privacy, but they'll get the entirety of their medical records. Medical records are not transferred to Veterans Affairs. They go to the national archives. The Canadian Forces health services have to hold them for a certain period of time, and then they go to the national archives.

They do not come to us. We only get information with respect to the condition for which the service member is applying.