Veterans Affairs Committee on March 25th, 2022

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

I would like to suggest that maybe we look at and take some of this information and, if we can get that data, bring it to the table so that we can ensure that our veterans are not being left behind. I've heard in these past couple of weeks that sometimes they're so desperate that in the end, suicide is the only way to get out. I really don't think that we're doing our veterans justice. That's something we need to look at, and I appreciate your honesty and your time. I would definitely look at that.

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Ms. Roberts.

Now we go to Wilson Miao for five minutes, please.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to both witnesses for joining us today and for the service your office has been providing to our veterans.

Last month, on the 23rd, our government announced an investment of $139.6 million to extend staff who are working on the backlog by an additional two years. What effect have you seen this having on the backlog so far, and what more needs to be done? What should VAC be focusing on in the coming months?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

We are, of course, encouraged by everything and anything that goes to helping the department have the resources it needs to address not only the backlog but the processes by which decisions are made, by all the tools they use to make those decisions and all the supports and programs they provide to ensure that gender-based analysis is done on policies prior to their being put into place.

We remain very much encouraged by what we see. However, there are the gaps in wait times between males and females and anglophones and francophones, and we don't even know what the impacts are on rural and urban or indigenous and non-indigenous. There are so many other demographic factors that we are uncertain of and can't see the answers to. All I can say is that we remain encouraged and we hope to see that these things continue to improve and that the gaps continue to lessen.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Apart from the analytics that we should be getting the data from, what does VAC need to focus on in the long term, rather than the short term? These numbers will continue to build up. Are you hearing of more issues arising in recent months from veterans?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

The number one role of the ombud's office is to receive and respond to complaints from individual veterans. We continue to receive those complaints every single day. Where we see that there is a systemic issue, when we see complaints that come in that are similar or that have similar aspects, that will trigger for us a systemic investigation.

All I can do, Mr. Chair, is to shine a light where we see, perceive or find gaps and barriers to equitable access to the programs and benefits that the department provides.

We receive briefings from the department on how it's doing its work and, again, we remain encouraged by what we hear. We know that there is still a lot more work to do, and we will continue to remain alert for systemic gaps and do our best to bring those to the attention, not only of the department, but to Canadians and our veteran population.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Do you see other issues that your office will be wanting to explore in the coming months to address these?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

Yes. Absolutely. We have a list of investigations that are ongoing and investigations that we expect to conduct over the next period of time.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you very much for that.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm finished with my questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Mr. Miao.

Right now, I'm pretty sure that MP Fraser Tolmie would like to ask you some questions as well, Colonel Jardine.

Mr. Tolmie, go ahead, please.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Colonel Jardine, for your service. Thank you for joining us today.

Mr. Schippers, congratulations on your new position.

I'd like to address a couple of things that were said earlier on. I felt that earlier in the questioning, we were failing to recognize that the ombud report is an independent report. You're actually providing a report card concerning how well Veterans Affairs is performing.

I felt that there were maybe some comments made earlier on that suggested you were there to direct Veterans Affairs, when actually you're there highlighting some of the issues. I know you could expand on that relationship a bit.

Could you please expand, then, on your relationship with Veterans Affairs, on some of the recommendations you bring forward, and on how well they respond to those?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

It is certainly a challenge for me. I think one of the most important things for me to do is to help people understand what an ombud's office does. We walk an extremely narrow lane. All I can do is [Technical difficulty—Editor] on where I see unfairness or inequity. That is all we can do.

I offer my recommendations. We do our very best, our utmost, to ensure that the recommendations we make to the department are realistic and achievable. We understand that in some cases they require legislative change, which is, as you know, over to the government. We know that sometimes we need to make those recommendations. We make them thoughtfully and carefully.

Since I've arrived, whenever I submit a report, I ask explicitly for the minister to respond to my recommendations: Do you agree? That is all I can do. I look to others to reinforce these recommendations or to take the necessary steps to put them in place.

Again, this is my role. It's a very narrow role. It is a fantastic job. I enjoy it thoroughly. It is so rewarding to be able to point out, “Here's a problem, and here's how we suggest that it can be fixed.” When those recommendations are taken up and implemented, it is an extremely rewarding [Technical difficulty—Editor].

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you for that answer. I just wanted to make sure this committee understood that we're not here to portion the blame on the report you've produced, which is a very good report, and that your job there is not to direct Veterans Affairs. Your job is to bring this report card to us and highlight the issues. Our job is to face the challenges, bring some of these recommendations forward and make sure they are priorities not only within our budget but also within our mandate.

Clearly, one thing that screams out to me in your report is that money doesn't solve the problem. We should be focusing on the clients more, and obviously building personal relationships, which comes down to customer service. Would you agree with that?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

I absolutely would.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you.

I want to circle back to a comment made earlier on by my colleague Mr. Caputo. Your office first recommended triaging veterans back in 2018, almost four years ago. Are you aware of any progress in terms of Veterans Affairs—not the ombudsman but Veterans Affairs, as I've clearly pointed out—implementing a process to deal with that?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

I need to refer to my notes on this. I'll probably ask Mr. Schippers to jump in and help me with this, as it was before my time.

We did indeed make this recommendation to triage applications. I must acknowledge it has been partly implemented by the department. The department triages the applications of veterans who are 80 and over, or who self-identify as having a life-threatening condition. However, what is missing is the proactive triage I spoke about earlier.

How can the department find out more about the applicant that would help it to determine whether the application should go to the front of the line or wait until other more important or pressing applications are considered?

Perhaps I would ask Mr. Schippers if he can add...or not.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

No. I'm sorry, Colonel Jardine.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I think we're getting the red card.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Yes, exactly.

We'll go to Mr. Rogers, for five minutes.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Chair, and welcome to our guest. It's great to hear your perspective on many of these issues.

I would like to focus along the lines of what might be potential solutions to all the problems that have been identified. As you said, Colonel Jardine, let's not get lost in the numbers. I'm looking for maybe some suggestions or solutions you might be able to propose to improve the system.

I'll ask you this first question. Do you believe that VAC has the tools to address issues relating to the backlog and inequality with the resources it currently has, or do you foresee it needing to modernize, further streamline, or even look for ideas outside of the box, or from other jurisdictions, that are not being used currently to address some of these issues now and into the future?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

It's not my role or mandate to tell the department or to offer to the department how it should do its very important work. Where we see gaps, we will do a systemic investigation, which we advise the department we are doing. We keep the department fully engaged. As we work through our research and collection of data, we work with the department to confirm that the findings we've made are indeed valid. Again, we do our best to make the best recommendations.

That is the extent to which I can answer your question. We are, again, always alert to where we see gaps. All I can do is point to the gap [Technical difficulty—Editor]. That is the extent of my mandate.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

I appreciate your role and mandate. I'm just looking for any suggestions or solutions that might resolve some of these issues.

I recently met with the ombudsman for National Defence, Mr. Gregory Lick, to hear all of the services that are offered. Throughout the meeting, he frequently spoke about how much both of your offices collaborate and work together to address issues for both veterans and those in active service.

Can you elaborate on this relationship and, specifically, on how you address concerns together on particular issues of inequality and backlog?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

A veteran, of course, is a person who yesterday served in the Canadian Forces or served in the RCMP. That person has not changed by having simply been released from the Canadian Forces. The needs that person had yesterday are the same needs that person has today, and in fact, they are even greater today.

I'll invite Mr. Schippers to speak to how, at the staff level, those offices may collaborate more. With the pandemic, I have not had a chance to travel or to meet very often with Mr. Lick. We share concerns around the transition piece. That's probably where I'll leave it.

I'll ask Mr. Schippers if he can offer anything at the staff level about how the collaboration works.

[Duane Schippers]

Mr. Rogers, in response to your question, we have collaborated on that transition piece with the DND ombudsman. We also work with DND on approaches. We've talked to them about potentially doing outreach events together on bases where those opportunities arise.

There are other things that link into the VAC determination. For example, if medical doctors at CAF were able and willing to make a determination of a service-related illness, that would transfer over into the VAC side of events. That is more in the DND/CAF ombudsman's bailiwick, but from our perspective something like that would have an impact on the veteran population. Those are just a couple of examples.