Veterans Affairs Committee on March 25th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Okay, perfect. The meeting is suspended for one minute. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

We are resuming, and it is now Mr. Casey's turn.

You have five minutes to ask the witnesses your questions, Mr. Casey. Go ahead.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Technology's great when it works, and sometimes the old stuff works better than the new, so here we are.

Ms. Jardine, thank you very much for being with us. I trust you're settling in to your new role.

One of the things you asked us to do in your opening remarks—and, I think, once since—was to ask the department for information with respect to those waiting for a decision on their initial applications, to get a look at those numbers.

Indeed, it isn't a problem for the committee to do that, and I take your point that we should be interested in that, but if this is something that merits remarks in your opening statement and is something you've reinforced, I question why you haven't done so. I had a look at your mandate. It appears that it would be within your mandate to review existing and systemic issues.

Number one, I would ask why you haven't asked the department for these numbers, to enable you to dive deeper into it. Two, could you comment generally on the level of co-operation and the level of information flow that you have with the department? I wonder whether this could be indicative of a bigger problem.

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

Let me take the second part first. Since I have taken up this role—and thank you—I have found that the working relationship that I have with the department and that my staff have with the department is for the most part collegial and mutually respectful.

We do ask for data. At times, the department simply can't give us that data because they don't collect that data. A consistent theme in the recommendations that we make is that the department look to collect disaggregated data so that it can find out as much as possible about the diverse populations it serves.

For example, in this report that we have upcoming, one of the key findings was that there was insufficient data for us to even make any findings. We're unable to tell you how bad the problem is or how far it extends, because the data is simply not available. Our understanding is that the department doesn't collect that data. I would ask the committee to refer the question of why that is or what can be done to the department.

With respect to the number of initial applications and who is waiting for treatment, again it's a question of data. I'll ask my colleague, Duane, who probably has a much greater understanding of how we ask for data, to provide a bit more background on that.

[Duane Schippers]

Mr. Casey, we absolutely receive data on turnaround times, and specifically on the question of first applications. [Technical difficulty—Editor] depending on who you ask. The department reported certain data to this committee and used a different method of calculation from the one we use. It's important that the committee be able to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges when looking at the data.

We look at first applications. The department looks at all applications. That includes second applications, which are typically much faster, and “red-zone” applications, which are fast-tracked right from the start because the veteran might be over the age of 80 or might be so seriously injured that it's obvious that assistance is needed rapidly. We do have those data. It gets even more complicated if you look at, for example, average wait times compared to median wait times.

The point we're trying to make is that there's no doubt that francophones wait longer than anglophones and women wait longer than men, and if you're a francophone woman, you wait longer than everyone else. That hasn't changed, but the gap is narrowing.

VAC is looking at data month to month. We look at it year to year, so we'll be looking at it again this year, comparing the year ended March 31 to last year's wait time. We get a full year's worth of data, and we can see the improvement year over year, to the extent that there is improvement. We know there have been a number of initiatives, but we need to look at the actual numbers to see what that means.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Casey and Mr. Schippers.

The next two members will have two and a half minutes of speaking time each, starting with Mr. Desilets.

Over to you, Mr. Desilets, for two and a half minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Schippers, I appreciate the information you've provided.

Once again, I'm a bit shocked to hear you say that the department doesn't collect those data. Are we to understand that, at the very least, it reviews and analyzes the data available at the library?

[Duane Schippers]

Is the question for me?

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Yes.

[Duane Schippers]

They collect the data.

Certainly, the electronic data exist, but here's the question:

What are you comparing it to? The data is different, depending on what factors are involved. What Colonel Jardine was talking about in terms of not collecting data is if they collect data for men, women, francophones and anglophones, where there's a gap would be for data on indigenous veterans. Do indigenous veterans wait longer than others or not? Does it matter where you live, if you're in a more remote location versus an urban centre? It's those kinds of additional factors. Does it matter if you're LGBTQ? Do you wait longer than someone who isn't? That data isn't collected, so you can't compare it. That's the data that's missing, but the basic data on language and gender is collected and we do have that.

The big issue is whether we are comparing things in the same way. If you add in all applications versus only first applications, you're going to have some different answers as to the progress that's being made.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I understand that, but it doesn't strike me as that complex of an exercise. I know you've asked for the data previously, but wouldn't it be possible to get a table twice a year that showed how many applications were outstanding, how many were first, second and third applications, and what the average and median wait times were? That would make it possible to track the situation over time.

We have indeed received data. We even met with department officials three weeks ago, but I feel as though I was taken for a ride.

Mr. Schippers, why isn't this done?

[Duane Schippers]

I don't have a good answer for you, Mr. Desilets.

It's actually the department's responsibility to provide the committee or the public with the information, if I'm not mistaken. What our office does is provide an update in our annual report

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I understand exactly what you're saying, Mr. Schippers.

Since I'm just about out of time, could you—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Unfortunately, Mr. Desilets, your two and a half minutes is up. I have to stop you there.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

The chair has cut me off.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I do want to take a moment to let the committee know that I signed the letter that was sent to the department to get clarity on the very data we are talking about.

We now go to Ms. Blaney for two and a half minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Speaking of data, we heard from multiple witnesses earlier this week. We heard from the LGBT community that on none of the forms were they asked that question. People who are willing and happy to identify don't even have the opportunity to identify, which means we don't have that data. This is very concerning.

My next question is around the caregivers. We know that so many of them are doing a lot of the work. What I heard in the last response was really important; that is, that the government is benefiting from the free labour of the caregivers.

We could explore that a bit more, because we know that the eligibility criteria are very narrow. They don't look at the key things. You said right here in your report that caregivers are taking on the veteran's share of the child care, elder care, cooking, shopping, laundry, baking, appointments, and providing all that psychological support, and that those things just don't qualify.

Could you talk about the impact this has on the family and on the veteran?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

I think an example may help to clarify this or to give you a better understanding.

The caregiver recognition benefit is for the caregivers of veterans who are the most seriously injured. What about the veteran who can use a spoon and a fork to feed themselves—which is one of the activities of daily living—but cannot go out of the house to go and buy the groceries? That falls upon their family members or whoever is providing care for them.

How do we define “family”? How do we define who is a caregiver? We feel there may be a great deal of unfairness here, and it will be the focus of one of our upcoming investigations.

I hope to be able to report more fulsomely at that time.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I find this really compelling, because I remember, in our study on caregivers in the last Parliament, talking about how families were dealing with huge psychological trauma that most trauma experts would struggle with, yet the families were left carrying that. There is no support for that. Loved ones often can't even work outside of the home, because they have all the work inside the home.

I hope that study looks at that as well.

Thank you for your work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Ms. Blaney.

Now let's go over to Ms. Anna Roberts.

The floor is yours for five minutes.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, thank you very much for your service.

I received a call from a constituent outside of my riding who has tried on numerous occasions to get through, calling my staff and explaining his story over and over again. The trauma that it puts on our veterans to go through that process, I think, is unacceptable. There's another thing that we're missing out here, which is that my staff get emotionally involved with these individuals.

We heard from witnesses earlier this week that they would not recommend that anyone join the forces. I think that's a poor example of how we are dealing with situations.

Do you not agree that the collection of data will assist the department in improving areas that could speed up the care of our veterans? This would identify the areas of weakness so that we could work on improving the efficiency of service. Let's be honest, without the data, how can we identify areas that need assistance?

I think it's an important part. Do you feel that way?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

I do, very much. In fact, I would strongly encourage the committee to ask the department exactly those questions. Ask the department to tell you how many veterans are waiting for decisions on their first applications. How many of those veterans don't have easy access to health care? How many of those veterans are in financial hardship? How many applicants are still serving?

When you are still serving in the CAF you have access to an outstanding health care system that's provided by the Canadian Armed Forces. Are those [Technical difficulty—Editor] so they're not being addressed prior to the veteran who has in fact been released from the CAF and does not have access to these supports? I would absolutely encourage this.

That is exactly my message: Please ask the department for more granularity in the information it provides to you, so that you can focus your attention where it is really [Technical difficulty—Editor] issue.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

I have a constituent whose son is going to be joining the military to do his medical training through there, because he feels that it is important to understand the effects that it has on our veterans. Let's be honest, unless you walk the path, you don't understand what the individual's going through, and I think it's very important to see that.

Would you say this is an important avenue that we could tackle to ensure that we get the right, proper, medically trained doctors, nurses and home care individuals? Would that benefit our veterans in your opinion?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

That's a complex question, Mr. Chair.

The way the department resources its medical and expert staff is certainly something that is outside of my mandate to respond to.

I will agree, of course, that having served in the Canadian Armed Forces, or even the RCMP, gives you that perspective that you can get only by having worn those combat or RCMP boots.