Veterans Affairs Committee on March 25th, 2022

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Okay, ma'am, but you talk about even for yourself.... I know that you don't go to the doctor unless you absolutely have to. It's the “suck it up, buttercup” thing, which men go through too. Then they have trouble getting it through to VAC that this incredible back pain they have is related to their service; they've just applied for that care—it's been five years—and they're now being called on again to go and get professional feedback.

We're now just coming out of COVID and they can't get an appointment for two more years. This is unacceptable.

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

This is the scope of the problem. This is exactly where my concern is, and I thank all of you so much for being seized of that matter.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Ms. Wagantall. You still have 30 seconds.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

I have trouble on Zoom in telling when my time is up. I should track myself. I'm sorry.

I appreciate that. I'll give my time to someone else who would like to go forward with another question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much.

Now let's go to MP Darrell Samson for five minutes, please.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you very much, Mrs. Wagantall, for your 30 seconds. It's much appreciated. If you had known that I was following, I'm not sure that I would have gotten it, but that's okay. I appreciate that.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Of course—no problem.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you.

My question is again on this triage. The concept is interesting. My colleague, Mr. Caputo, mentioned that as well. Having someone now wait 16 weeks or three years because they have a pension and they have some of the benefits prior to...is a different conversation, but I don't think we're inventing anything new.

Are you aware that in 2019 it was in the minister's mandate letter that there would be contacts made? That's why we've seen a lot of contacts. Throughout COVID, I think it was 15,000 or more. All those who had a caseworker got a call, I believe. Would you like to share your perspective on that, please?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

The veterans who have a caseworker are those who are in the rehabilitation program or who already have a disability claim approved and need more assistance. Mr. Schippers can correct me if I have that wrong.

What we're talking about is the time it takes for the department to actually make the decision on the disability claim. The disability claim is the gateway into the department and into having stable and consistent access to funded health care treatment.

I distinguish between those two things. The people making the decisions are the adjudicators [Technical difficulty—Editor] for veterans who are already in the system, as it were.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you.

Mr. Rogers has a follow-up question.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Samson, and thank you, Chair.

I'm not sure if this question is directly in your shop or not, but I'm just wondering how your office works to prevent issues relating to the backlog that we've heard about or the other concerns around equal treatment. Can you predict or see trends early in some of the things that might be happening, and how do you relay these concerns so they're addressed as soon as possible to avoid a further amplification of the problems?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

We do this in two ways. First and foremost, when an individual veteran or serving member comes to us with a complaint about their difficulty with the department, in order to resolve that complaint we must interact with the department to bring it to their attention. At every level, my staff can work across with the person in the department who can help to fix the problem.

If they're unable to do so, it comes to Mr. Schippers. Mr. Schippers will go across at his level to try to correct the problem. Sometimes it comes right to me, and I will write a letter to the deputy minister outlining the issue and making a recommendation as to how the complaint can be resolved.

We do this on a daily basis. This is the bread and butter of an ombud's job. We do it every single day for veterans and serving members. Any client of Veterans Affairs can come to us when they have a complaint. We bring that to the attention of the department because they're the ones who can fix it.

The second way we do this is with our systemic investigations. Where we see that there may be a systemic problem or a systemic inequity that is causing a barrier to the benefits and services or equitable access to benefits and services, we will launch a formal investigation. We do research with data from the department. We go into the department and understand the policies. We make findings and then craft recommendations that we believe will resolve the systemic issue. We report on those in our annual report and in our report card.

Those are the two ways in which we work on a daily basis with the department to identify gaps and barriers for veterans.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you very much for that. I appreciate that answer.

I'm done, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Rogers.

Mr. Desilets, you have two and a half minutes. Go ahead.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Ms. Jardine.

I want to start by thanking you, because you made me realize something extremely important when you answered Mr. Caputo's question. I'm talking about the importance of the connection with the client. I now understand that case managers are some of the only professionals providing assistance to people who do not meet their clients face to face. They don't really have a connection with their clients. I realize that now, and it makes no sense, really.

I'd like your opinion on something. This week, the committee heard from a peer support worker who has helped 1,200 veterans with the application process over the past 12 years, as a volunteer, I might add. She recommended the department create liaison officer positions so that veterans had a reliable and stable point of contact throughout the case management process. The veteran would know more about the status of their claim, and feel supported and reassured throughout the process.

I'd like to know your thoughts on this. Is it a feasible and credible option?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

Very quickly, the people who step forward to help veterans [Technical difficulty—Editor] are saints.

The Royal Canadian Legion does this and has done this for decades. There are many individuals across this country, like the people you have heard from, who step up and try to help their colleagues with their claims because they have some experience with it. They are saints for doing that, because the process is not as clear as we would like it to be.

Getting the information and providing a fulsome answer.... I alluded to this before. When they have served, veterans believe that they should have only to say, “I served. Here was my occupation. I am broken and I need help.” However, the process and the paperwork that's required needs far more than that. These people who help are truly providing a service of gold.

I commend them. Everyone in my office commends them for the work they do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much.

I now invite Ms. Blaney for two and a half minutes. Please go ahead, Ms. Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I really appreciate this conversation. My question is for both of you—whoever you feel is the best person to answer.

I have heard from many veterans that they now feel like they are going to an insurance company, where they are continually having to prove it, again and again. That is the feeling they have. I have heard this so many times: “We're proving it again. We're fighting again. It doesn't feel like a place where you go to get help; it feels like a place where you go to fight.”

I also want to add that the issue with My VAC Account continues to be another concern. Often, the veterans are told, “Only you can use that.” There's a big process if they want somebody else to be able to access it for them. When you're dealing with multiple levels of trauma and multiple levels of physical health, you just don't have the time.

I find it confusing. I work with veterans quite a lot. Depending on where they are, it can take me an hour just to get them to calm down enough to have a conversation from which we can take action. If you keep putting them in a position where, when they call, it takes an hour to calm them down.... We've worked with veterans who are told, “We don't answer your calls anymore.” I don't understand that at all. They served our country and they are told, “You can't call here anymore, because you're abusing our people.”

I'm just wondering if you've heard anything similar. Do you have any suggestions about whom we may want to call to this committee, in order to address it?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

I can say two things.

First, I absolutely share your concern about veterans who are frustrated, who perhaps have mental health issues, and who are unable to provide the information required in a calm and collected manner because they are so frustrated and perhaps suffer from mental health issues. I have raised this concern directly with the department. I share that concern in my own office, as well.

The second thing—and I would like to make this point—is that the government has made a change, coming on April 1, to extend mental health treatment benefits to a veteran who has [Technical difficulty—Editor] a mental health [Technical difficulty—Editor]. I would urge the government to go one step further and provide the exact same consideration and benefit to veterans who come forward with any disability claim condition. It will go an immense way to covering the gap that is created simply by releasing them from the Canadian Armed Forces.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you for your input.

Colonel Jardine, on behalf of the committee members and myself, I want to thank you for your participation today and for your service in the armed forces. Thank you as well for all the work you are doing to help veterans.

I want to remind everyone, Ms. Jardine, that you are a retired colonel and the veterans ombud. I imagine you noticed that the committee members and I did our best to say “veterans ombud”.

I would also like to say thank you to Mr. Duane Schippers, the deputy veterans ombud.

Ladies and gentlemen, I want to ask—

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Go ahead, Mr. Desilets.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Before you adjourn the meeting, I was wondering whether it would be possible to have that fine letter you wrote to the Minister of Veterans Affairs added to the digital binder, please?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

That's an excellent suggestion, Mr. Desilets. The letter is being translated as we speak, and once that's done, it will go out to all the committee members.

Seeing no objections, I'm going to adjourn the meeting, but first, I want to thank the clerk, the analyst, the interpreters and all of the technical staff for supporting the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

The meeting is adjourned.

Thank you and see you next time.