Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 26th, 2024

[Vicky-Lynn Cox]

They'll recognize that you might have knee problems or you might have heel or back problems, but on no level do they acknowledge that a guy can get prostate cancer or you can get brain cancer or pancreatic cancer.

The thing is that all these toxic materials attack the organs. Once they attack the organs, you're....

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

You talked about your three children, and I'm just curious: Do you feel that how the transition was performed impacted your children in any way? Does VAC provide any concrete support for them?

[Vicky-Lynn Cox]

No. At no point in my transition period was my family required to transition themselves.

In my opinion, the military member is transitioning but the family is also transitioning. The money is going to be a little insecure. It might have been a single military member getting in, but usually when we're getting out, we have a family—we have a husband and kids. They need to be involved in that to the extent they can understand why mom is so sick. They haven't been told.

My kids think I don't work; I'm a housewife, but I did work before. This was not explained. My husband was not explained what the process was exactly, and in my transition, he had to go to staff college. I'm transitioning now and he's at staff college.

The kids weren't doing well. My daughter ended up with self-mutilation marks from her thigh to her ankle. All of this chaos was part of that. I was unable to find her a therapist because Veterans Affairs would just tell me to phone this number and that number—just phone. I wasn't able to do that until I had a critical care nurse at home phoning and using the “RN” at the end of her name to get Sydney in. It was still so extremely hard to find help for the children.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

Thanks to both of you for your participation, input and contribution to this study on the transition to civilian life.

Thank you, Ms. Cox. We wish you much strength going forward. I will remind everyone that you are an aircraft structures technician.

Thank you, as well, to Mr. Booth, CEO of the True Patriot Love Foundation.

We will suspend briefly to bring in our next four witnesses.

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call the meeting back to order.

We are continuing our study on the transition to civilian life. For the second hour of our meeting, we are pleased to welcome four witnesses. In the room, we have Carolyn Hughes, director of veterans services at the Royal Canadian Legion, and John Senior, veteran, appearing as an individual. By video conference, we have Susan Pollard, and Steve Turpin, whom I welcome once again.

We will have five minutes for opening statements. After that, members of the committee will ask questions.

I will ask members of the committee to think about who is going to ask questions, and I will start with a six-minute round.

For now, let's go with Ms. Hughes.

You're a regular here.

You have five minutes for your opening statement.

[Carolyn Hughes, Director, Veterans Services, Royal Canadian Legion]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Honourable chair and members of the parliamentary Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, on behalf of the dominion president, Comrade Bruce Julian, and over 256,000 members, thank you for inviting the Royal Canadian Legion to speak with you today on your study regarding transition.

The Legion has over 1,300 branches—I think we're up to 1,350 now—from coast to coast to coast, each with a volunteer service officer. These are our boots on the ground. We also have 35 provincial command service officers and assistant command service officers across the country, who assist veterans every day with disability applications to Veterans Affairs, appeals to the Veterans Review and Appeal Board, access to other VAC benefits and programs, and, of course, financial assistance through poppy trust funds. I mention that because we hear from veterans all across the country. That's going to be the premise of a lot of what I speak about.

I'm the Legion's director of veterans services at the national headquarters. I'm also a veteran and am honoured to help my comrades every day. My last position in the military, over 10 years ago, was helping the ill and injured as they transitioned out of the military at what was called the integrated personnel support centres at that time. This was prior to the standing up of the transition centres.

My words will reflect what I'm hearing across the country.

I would like to begin with a framework that we think is a crucial backdrop to understanding the adjustment period at enlistment and before and during transition.

Experiences of transition and release are different. They're unique for each veteran because some voluntarily leave after a short period of service. Maybe they paid back their education and want to move on to another job. Some have young families, some have served 30 years, some have illnesses and injuries—whether they're attributable to service or not—some are single and some are married. There is a lot of variety out there. In any case, it can be terrifying when you're taking the uniform off and moving on to a different way of life. A lot changes at that time.

When you first join the military, you're indoctrinated into a regimented system. You believe the system will always look after you and that you can rely on it. We accept the military culture of teamwork and rely heavily on that team support in all aspects of our career. There is no greater example of this than during times of conflict, but it exists in all aspects of military service.

Service personnel and their families grow with the military culture and have relatively comfortable lives. In essence, the military is part of their extended family, and that bond can be strong and unbreakable in many cases. It becomes part of their very fabric of being so that for some, leaving that lifestyle or culture is an extremely difficult period of time for them and their families.

During service, support was available to them. They knew where to go to ask questions and seek help. Professional development occurred throughout military training, deployments and postings. They were scheduled for them. They were told where and when to go, how to get there, what to wear, how to style their hair, etc.

After a career in a very structured environment, there are many unknowns for a member and their family during transition and their release from service. It is a unique experience for each and every one of them. As I've stated in many presentations in the past, one size does not fit all. In all aspects of the transition process, gender identity, ethnicity, religious background, age, length of service, rank, family status and much more must be considered for the individual. Other factors that can impede a smooth transition from military life to civilian life include housing, financial aspects, employment and education post-service, and a loss of sense of belonging and purpose.

Severe and complex disabilities will complicate the transition period and can cause greater instability once someone is released from service. Some medical conditions are not fully recognized by the member or their health care team while still in uniform, and some can take years to develop, such as cumulative joint trauma, wear-and-tear conditions in the back and knees and things like that. There are also those who do not report injury for fear of career impacts. They simply suck it up and carry on.

There are those who struggle with their mental health, whether from deployments, military sexual harassment or assault or any other stress factor in their life. A mental health condition is often not fully recognized by a member until somebody brings it forward or tells them to get help. Treatment is sought and a diagnosis is made, which can all take time. It may occur outside of uniform; it may not be diagnosed before they leave.

Stigma is still a major factor, although many great strides have been made to overcome this. Whether they're in treatment or not, mental illness creates a significant barrier to successful transition when supports are not available.

Given the severe shortage of health care providers across Canada, many are not receiving the necessary care post-service, as they wait for years to find a family doctor. Immediate and continuous treatment must be required before someone can achieve their new normal. Inadequate delays in health care, whether mental or physical, only serve to exacerbate symptoms and put the longer-term care of veterans and their families at risk.

As I'm almost at time, the main point that I want to bring up is that nobody who is severely injured or ill should be released from the military until their supports are in process. That includes doctors and other such supports.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Ms. Hughes.

I'd now like to invite Mr. John Senior to go ahead for five minutes, please.

[John Senior, Veteran, As an Individual]

Thank you very much for your time.

Unlike most in the general population, the military and the RCMP train a very tightly controlled group out of necessity. We are immediately segregated from the outside world. We learn to rely on others and then trust them with our lives. We learn to think as a community to overcome any and all problems. We are all very well trained and listen to orders and regulations so that we may protect our community and our country.

We are charged with responsibilities that the average person cannot comprehend. In the military, we might be charged with the care and control of a section and are responsible to provide all aspects of each soldier's needs and welfare. In return, they trust us with their lives.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Excuse me, Mr. Senior. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but could you please go a bit slower for the interpreters? We will ask you questions after.

[John Senior]

I'll wind it back a bit. I'm sorry about that, sir.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, five minutes is a pretty short period of time. Perhaps you could indicate to our witness that you will allow a little leeway, so he doesn't feel the need to try to get it all in.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Exactly.

Don't rush. Do not forget that you can also send a memorandum to the clerk. You have time.

[John Senior]

Okay. That's great.

We can also, as I was, be charged with the responsibility of getting aircraft onto the ramp for missions in Afghanistan, where the simple deciding factor was understanding if one aircraft had 15 more horsepower over another. This meant the success or failure of a mission, or life or death of a crew. As troops, we are trained to carry weapons and operate very complex equipment. We have extraordinary training and talent that are not comparable to anything in the civilian workplace.

In the course of our duties, most of us experienced trauma situations or heard about them. We even saw direct effects in combat, peacekeeping missions or other extreme situations. Some of these things exacted a very huge emotional or mental toll, causing significant operational stress injuries. We know that if we cannot get a grip on this, our lives will end abruptly within the military community.

Military and RCMP personnel develop identities that are beneficial during service. These identities allow us to disassociate for our own survival and to be effective in our jobs. We have to make very clear and defensible decisions that may undergo scrutiny for decades afterwards. Many people not in the service seem to forget that we are the ones you turn to for help, for national security, for emergency aid and for carrying out humanitarian aid in faraway lands. Sometimes we cannot just turn off our defensive identities.

During the transition to civilian life, veterans are faced with integrating into the civilian world. Those who can adapt will find a new identity and will be able to achieve very good well-being. However, for about one-third of veterans, this is not possible.

You, as a government, have already done the studies and gathered this information, so it's not like another study has to be done. The answers are already there, for the most part. For example, in a life after service survey from 2019, 39% of people reported difficulty adjusting to civilian life, medical releases were 49%, depression was 33% and not being employed in a civilian workforce was 43%. Compared to the 2016 life after service survey, there was a drastic increase in retirement, not working in civilian employment and chronic conditions such as PTSD. There is a much higher increase in participation in VAC programs. Compared to the non-military-related age and sex comparison, there are much higher chronic pain issues—which are twice as high—and PTSD is 26 times more likely. Depression is nearly twice as high, anxiety is three times as high and regular activity and limitations are three times more.

The struggle we have to deal with is being dismissed. Politicians, doctors and people on the other end of the phone at Veterans Affairs—nearly everyone we deal with—appear to be completely dismissing us, our level of professionalism, the training and how responsible we were in what we were charged with. Dismissal does a lot of harm for us. No longer being in service does not mean that we immediately forget our loyalty and our knowledge at the door, and then immediately forget who we were. Sanctuary trauma is real and is caused by the place that's supposed to be taking care of us, so the endeavour to save money and deny benefits actually causes more harm than good.

We, as veterans of the military and the RCMP, are tired of seeing our benefits decreased while we're being used for photo ops and being denigrated for asking for more than we can give. Let me remind you that many of us gave all. While we willingly stood on guard, we are later asked to just stand by.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Senior. That was exactly five minutes.

Now I invite Ms. Susan Pollard to go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Susan Pollard, As an Individual]

Hi, everyone. Thanks for having me come to the session today.

I'm here to talk about the ability to reach new veterans, old veterans and everyone in between. I'd like to tell you a bit about the work that I've done.

I have approximately nine years of experience working with veterans, RCMP veterans, Canadian Armed Forces members and the family members of all of them. I held the role of the veteran family program coordinator at the P.E.I. Military Family Resource Centre for approximately five years. Prior to that, I did a lot of work with the organization, and I currently work with the Veterans Review and Appeal Board.

I am here today to represent as an individual. I'm not here as part of the Veterans Review and Appeal Board.

There are a couple of key topics that I want to bring forward today from the experience I've had in working with these clients of mine. The biggest thing is who a veteran is. In my experience, the definition of a veteran in various organizations and community supports is very different. I think we're doing a great job of trying to simplify it within government agencies and agencies that are at arm's length from the government, but even in the general public, the definition of a veteran has changed and continues to be at the forefront. It's the hot topic of who we're providing support and service to.

The veteran has been changing over the years. We're seeing that veterans are getting younger. Yes, some whose service was many years ago are getting older, but we're also seeing that there are a lot of younger veterans who perhaps don't identify as veterans although they are equally entitled to the supports and services that exist for all veterans. I think a lot of the education and information sharing has to come from the community outreach and public awareness we do.

As a veteran family program coordinator, I focused solely on educating the general public and on educating veterans, their families and everyone that they are a part of our community.

The next key topic I'd like to talk about is reducing the barriers and stigma around accessing support. To echo some of the comments that have been made, I'll use Prince Edward Island as the example. On the island, we have a large number of veterans and currently serving members within the regular force and the reserves, primarily reservists. We have RCMP members and we also have RCMP veterans.

Oftentimes, to access the support they need, specifically the medical support, they have to leave the island. They're often sent to the bases, the two biggest bases closest to Prince Edward Island, which are Gagetown and Halifax. In my experience of hearing from veterans, that is absolutely triggering. To return to somewhere they feel impacted negatively by is wrong. They also have the time commitment of having to travel off the island to access that service. There's financial strain that goes with that because the travel may not be covered. Some trips are covered through various supports, but not all of them are. It also adds to the impact on family dynamics. Sometimes the veteran can't take a loved one. Sometimes they wish they had or could. Sometimes they have to do that on their own, and that can absolutely be retraumatizing.

Release dates, medical conditions and the types of releases are all factors that impact the support and services that veterans receive in their post-service lives. It's crucial that there be up-to-date information on medical records and release records. I think we're doing a better job on the whole in having proper documentation, but I think there is still room for improvement. It's okay to not be okay. I strive to say that because I think we need to champion it and say that it's okay to step up and say, “I need help.” As the government and the general public, within that, we just need to advocate more for veterans accessing the support they truly need.

It's important to include families in this. With my experience in the veteran family program coordinator role with the P.E.I. Military Family Resource Centre, I feel that it's vital to include families in the release process. In my experience, oftentimes families are separated from the release process. They absolutely need to be included. It's critical that they are aware of the transition and the support they can access.

One example is counselling through the military family resource centre. Not many people know that it's a free service. Oftentimes, there is very little wait time. The counsellors are typically social workers, but they are a barrier-free resource that our families, the RCMP and veterans need to access.

I'll touch on the last point, access to information. This is a huge part of it. In my experience, veterans have been struggling to access the resources they're entitled to. Oftentimes, the veterans I've worked with have had, perhaps, barriers in accessing online resources. It becomes a cumbersome topic. It's triggering for them to log on to a computer, try to find information, interpret and comprehend it and then validate that it applies to them.

I worked really hard to help those veterans, but in my positions and roles, a lot of the time I was not allowed to because of the access to information. It's the ability to access, for instance, the My VAC account. That's something I was never allowed to access. As somebody who's well versed in technology and accessing online resources, I feel that I could have been a really great resource in helping them reduce the stress of simply logging on to a computer and trying to access that.

The other key point I want to mention is the impact of service records. It is absolutely crucial that service records are documented prior to release. I also want to mention that RCMP members should not be forgotten. As the daughter of an RCMP officer, I will say that oftentimes there are no resources for them and there needs to be.

Thank you for your time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Ms. Susan Pollard.

Now let's go to Mr. Steve Turpin. I'm pretty sure it's going to go well.

You have five minutes for your opening statement, please.

[Steve Turpin, As an Individual]

I hope everyone can hear me this time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Absolutely.

[Steve Turpin]

Thank you all for being here and for inviting me to this committee.

My name is Steve Turpin, and I was a member of the Canadian Forces for almost 25 years. I started my career in the reserve force in Quebec. I was among those who were deployed. At the time, there was no support for those returning from a mission who would have needed that help. That support didn't exist. They thanked us for serving for six months, told us it was over and sent us home.

I was fortunate to be able to join the regular force a year later and continue the rest of my career in aviation. At that time, the six months that I had served in the reserve force were not recognized. I never received the support or treatment I needed. Even today, I have problems with some odours. No one recognizes that. Even in the regular force, they didn't recognize it when I asked for it to be done.

Before I was released from the regular force for a different medical reason, which is still difficult for me to talk about, I was fairly well prepared by the case managers. I have no complaints about that. The problem is that we are then left alone. Once you're out of the system, you're on your own. I called Veterans Affairs Canada to ask for help, to meet with psychologists, in order to avoid problems in my family. Fortunately, I have a strong family, which has been with me throughout my career. It has supported me and continues to support me today.

When we need to see a mental health specialist and they send us to see just about anyone because they don't have the necessary resources in the region where we live, that doesn't help. I really needed to see a psychologist, but I was sent to see a sexologist because the services I needed were not available in my region. Health care workers want to do things properly in the regions, but they are not trained to treat veterans. They do not know or understand our situation—what we have been going through for all these years.

In addition, I come from the Trois-Rivières region of Quebec, and there is no military base nearby where I can get support. Right now, it's a daily struggle to keep going. As the English saying goes,

“Suck it up, buttercup.”

I have to move on, and I have to do it with the support of my friends and family.

It would be good if Veterans Affairs Canada could do an audit. I know that the department has a list of health professionals by region. However, the department must make sure that these professionals are really able to meet our needs. The two specialists I went to see could not answer my questions. They couldn't do anything for me, even after I asked them three, four or five questions. They asked me instead what they could do for me. I could have asked them to declare me disabled; they would have done so. But that's not what I want, and it wouldn't have helped me. So Veterans Affairs Canada has to find a way to help people, especially those who, in some cities, don't have access to resources. The department must find adequate resources for them.

Training is a very difficult area. You have a very big task in front of you. Thank you again for working on that. Every individual is different. Everyone has their own reasons for wanting to leave the Canadian Forces. I think it's important to look at the fact that our situation prevents us from pursuing a career that we would like to pursue in civilian life. There are a number of fields where I would have liked to be able to flourish.

I know that working in those fields would have helped me, but given my situation, I was prevented from doing so. They didn't want to pay for my training. I was directed to training I was not interested in. That doesn't help us as veterans.

In that sense, I absolutely want to help all veterans who have served in the armed forces or the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. That is really my desire and the reason I am here today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much for your testimony, Mr. Turpin. Thank you for agreeing to stay with us for the second hour of this meeting.

I thank all the witnesses. Whether as an individual or as an organization, you all said that it was important to help veterans. That's what we're seeing. So thank you for what you're doing.

We're going to move right into the first round of questions. I invite Blake Richards to take the floor for six minutes.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you.

Thank you to all of our witnesses. Thank you to those of you who served our country for your service to our country.

I'm going to start with you, Mr. Senior.

I thought you put it really well when you wrapped up your opening statement talking about how veterans were willing to put everything on the line when they served and now they're being told to just hang out, wait a bit and maybe eventually we'll get to dealing with your claims. I think that really strikes at the very bottom line of the problem here. Veterans were willing to serve this country, and their country should be there for them. Right now, we're not seeing that.

I wonder if you could start by talking briefly, for maybe 60 seconds or so, to your service. Tell us a bit about your service and why it makes you well qualified to be here as a witness on our transition study.

[John Senior]

Thank you very much for that.

I started off in Gagetown, New Brunswick, as armoured corps. My very first introduction to being active was during my training when we stood up to be on standby for the Oka crisis and essentially everything after that.

Then I went into Germany for Cold War stuff. We were always on duty—24-7, 365—in theatre. It was very different back then. We knew we were sacrificial. In the tanks, we had to take out 36 of them to one of ours. We knew we were a speed bump. We literally had a 15-second lifespan.

From there I came back to Canada, and I went to Bosnia in 1994 with the United Nations. I saw a lot of stuff going on there. My first deployment under NATO was in 1997. We rolled into Bosnia. Then again in 2000 I was with the air force.

Then I did the G8 summit and the Quebec ice storm. Then I did a bunch of time in the States to train for the Chinook helicopters. I did Afghanistan. I did a lot of international stuff there. I did a lot of international work.

I'm sorry I'm taking a little more time here.

When we work with a lot of other nations, you get to see the differences in the way their soldiers are treated and stuff like that. In a lot of ways we are left behind.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

You mentioned some service in Afghanistan. I know you follow this committee. You mentioned that to me at the beginning before you came up to the witness stand.

How do you feel about all of the delays we're seeing in trying to get a monument constructed for the Afghanistan mission, and all of the delays we're seeing in getting to the motion that's trying to get to the bottom of it in this committee?

[John Senior]

The whole thing here is that the monument is important to the veterans. The delay of this is turning into a sore point.

When we see this stuff happening now, we really can't take pride in it because there were a lot of things that didn't happen when we returned from Afghanistan. It was just like, “Okay, it's over. It's all done.” With other places, there was some recognition for that. We weren't asking for a ticker tape parade kind of thing. That never happened. It was literally, “Okay, we're quietly leaving.”

Then, to rub salt into the wounds, they abandoned all the interpreters who were there as well. That really left a sore point. This monument is now being tainted and that delay is going further than that.

I did some homework before coming here. I put this out to 18,000 vets on 12 different pages, and there's a lot of anger out there with this whole thing. It shouldn't be a political thing. That's what I'm trying to get at. It should represent Canada as a nation and it's not.

When you go to other nations, you don't see this happening. I go down to the States a lot and do work with Veterans Affairs down there. They don't have those particular problems because it's a national recognition.

When you look at the Gulf War vets, they got nothing. They're ignored. We're really starting to feel the same way with this. I really hope you understand what I'm trying to say, which is that this should not be a political football. That's all I'm trying to get at.