Evidence of meeting #9 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was laurion.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jean Laurion  Veteran, As an Individual
Debbie Lowther  Chief Executive Officer and Co-Founder, VETS Canada
Jean-Guy Soulière  President, National Association of Federal Retirees
Sayward Montague  Director, Advocacy, National Association of Federal Retirees

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to the ninth meeting of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

In accordance with the order adopted on Tuesday, February 8, 2022, the committee is meeting to continue its study on the fairness in the services offered to veterans: francophones and anglophones, men and women, and the LGBTQ+ community.

Welcome to our colleagues Ms. Lisa Marie Barron, who is replacing Rachel Blaney, and Mr. Wayne Long, who is replacing Sean Casey.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so that you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

Today's meeting is also taking place in the webinar format. Webinars are for public committee meetings and are available only to members, their staff and witnesses. Members enter immediately as active participants. All functionalities for active participants remain the same. Staff will be non-active participants and can therefore view the meeting only in gallery view.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute. I will remind you that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses this evening.

First of all, as an individual, we have Mr. Jean Laurion, Veteran. From the National Association of Federal Retirees, we have Mr. Jean-Guy Soulière, President; Mr. Anthony Pizzino, Chief Executive Officer; and Ms. Sayward Montague, Director, Advocacy. From VETS Canada, we have Ms. Debbie Lowther, Chief Executive Officer and Co‑Founder.

You will have five minutes for your opening remarks. We'll start with Mr. Laurion, then we'll go to Ms. Debbie Lowther, and then we'll come back and split five minutes between Mr. Soulière and Mr. Pizzino.

I have little cards, like they do in soccer, to give you a signal when your time is up. I can already see the smile on Mr. Soulière's face. I think we're going to enjoy hearing him.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, but the meaning of these coloured cards is quite different in soccer. I want to make sure everybody is aware that there are no penalties associated with the colours.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

So we'll start, as I said, with Mr. Jean Laurion, who is a veteran.

Mr. Laurion, I will ask you to unmute your microphone and begin. You have five minutes for your remarks. Go ahead, please.

6:45 p.m.

Jean Laurion Veteran, As an Individual

Thank you very much.

My name is Jean Laurion, and I joined the Canadian Armed Forces at the age of 17, on January 7, 1980, and I left on March 31, 2017. I spent 37 years and 3 months in the military.

I started in the infantry. At some point, I went on leadership courses, master corporal and sergeant courses. I was a recruit instructor. I also started working as a driving instructor.

After that, I went to Baden-Soellingen, in Germany, for five and a half months. There I worked with the military police against the infiltration of terrorists. I came back in October 1985, and in January 1986, I was asked to go to the Q Branch, where there was no one, because everyone had left. I was asked to go there and to look after the equipment. I took my courses up to the rank of sergeant, because I was already an infantry sergeant.

After that, I asked for a change of trade. In 1991, it was granted to me. Then, I did a whole series of courses on protection against tritium and all radioactive materials found in the forces. Naturally, we had to take these courses.

After that, I also saw changes in weapons. I also went to schools where courses were taught. I was the storekeeper for these courses. They were finance, administration and procurement courses. In the summer, we also had medical courses. I was in charge of that in a school.

I also went to the combat school in Valcartier for the summer courses where I was, again, a supply technician during the summer.

I was in the 6th Battalion of the Royal 22e Régiment from January 7, 1980 until October 2005. After that, I asked to be transferred to the Service Battalion, because I had no possibility of career advancement. So I joined the Service Battalion. Until the end of my career, I went around from 2007 to 2017. I was working full time. I went around to different units. I worked for the air cadets. After that, I came back to my unit. That's where I finished in 2017.

What I experienced naturally caused things to happen. Maybe we can talk about that later. Sometimes we experience things, but we don't realize that we have problems as a result. It is others who observe us and allow us to see that we have a problem.

It wasn't so long ago that we started to recognize the symptoms of post-traumatic stress in the military. Now they are recognized and that's a good thing, because there are people who come back from postings and are still very ill today. Although there are many veterans' groups, I also founded my own. I am a member of two other groups as well.

I want to remind you that every day an average of 22 veterans commit suicide in Canada.

That's all I have to say.

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Thank you very much, Mr. Jean Laurion. We'll have the opportunity to ask you questions to deepen the discussion and to learn about your experience. I also thank you for all your years of service in the forces.

Now I'd like to invite Ms. Debbie Lowther from VETS Canada to speak.

You have five minutes. Please open your mike and start.

6:50 p.m.

Debbie Lowther Chief Executive Officer and Co-Founder, VETS Canada

Mr. Chair, ladies and gentlemen of the committee, good evening. Thank you for the invitation to appear here today.

Before I begin, I would like to acknowledge that I'm speaking to you today from Mi’kma’ki, the ancestral and unceded territory of the Mi'kmaq people.

Although I've testified before this committee on many occasions in the past, I will begin with a brief introduction of our organization to benefit those of you who are not familiar with us or our work.

VETS Canada, or Veterans Emergency Transition Services, is a federally registered charity with an aim to provide immediate on-the-ground assistance to veterans who are homeless, at risk of becoming homeless or otherwise in crisis. We have hundreds of dedicated volunteers across the country. To date we have responded to thousands of requests for assistance from veterans and their families from coast to coast to coast, 24 hours a day and seven days a week, including holidays.

Requests for assistance come to us in various ways. They come through our toll-free phone line, website or social media platforms. Some come through referrals from other organizations or agencies. However, the majority of our referrals, an average of almost 80% over the past year, come from Veterans Affairs Canada. This means, of course, that we interact with Veterans Affairs regularly—daily, actually.

Regarding the fairness in the service provided to veterans, I have three main points to present. The first is the issue of inconsistency. Our experience is that there are inconsistencies in how information about benefits is communicated to the veteran. Often case managers and veteran service agents, VSAs, are very helpful and forthcoming with information on the benefits and services available to veterans. Still, there are times when, if the veteran doesn't ask the right questions, they don't know what they are entitled to. Veterans who are in crisis, perhaps struggling with mental health issues, facing homelessness or maybe even already homeless aren't usually in the right frame of mind to navigate the process of applying for benefits, especially if they don't even know what those benefits are. It would be helpful to have a more standardized process in place when veterans reach out to VAC, especially if it is their first interaction with the department.

For example, maybe there could be a checklist of standard questions to ask the veteran to gain a fulsome picture of their situation and their service history. This would then inform the case manager or VSA in determining which benefits and services the veteran might quality for. Currently, we are seeing some veterans who receive everything they need from VAC, and then others who meet the same criteria but don't even know what is available to them. The case manager or VSA hadn't asked the right questions, or any questions at all.

In 2018 the veterans emergency fund was launched. Because of the urgent nature of requests for the benefit, the eligibility criteria are flexible. It is a benefit for which case managers, VSAs or veteran service team managers have the authority to determine eligibility for up to $2,500. In exceptional circumstances, an area director can approve up to $10,000. The issue is that every case manager, VSA or veteran service team manager interprets the policy differently. Still on the point of inconsistency, we have seen situations where veterans have received what would appear to be preferential treatment simply based on the fact that those veterans were considered high-profile.

The second point I would like to mention is that there aren't enough bilingual staff members at VAC. As a federal government department, it is often assumed that all VAC employees are bilingual, but that is not the case. Because of this, francophone veterans aren't always able to readily receive service in the language of their choice, particularly if they reside outside of the national capital region or the province of Quebec. We've recently learned that benefits applications made in French are taking much longer to be adjudicated. We found that statistic quite disturbing in a country with two official languages.

My final point is on the service provided to veterans who identify as LGBTQ2+. In 2020 we received a grant from the LGBT Purge Fund for a one-year pilot project. In the interest of time, I won't go into the details of the project. However, we found that when veterans who identified as LGBTQ2+ are in crisis, they, like all veterans, want to feel supported with respect and without judgment. During the course of the year, all of the veterans who identified as LGBTQ2+ stated that they felt accepted, respected and welcomed by our staff and volunteers.

To ensure that our staff and volunteers continue to provide support in that manner, we decided to add specific training to our list of mandatory training. Throughout the one-year pilot project and since the end of the project, many veterans who identified as LGBTQ2+ disclosed that they often don't feel accepted or respected when receiving services from VAC.

Many case managers and VSAs lack knowledge of the LGBT purge, so education on that shameful period of time in our history would be beneficial. Case managers and VSAs would also benefit from training that gives them a better understanding of the issues faced by veterans who identify as LGBTQ2+ and in treating all veterans with the fundamental respect they deserve.

In closing, Mr. Chair, I will summarize our three recommendations: one, create a more standardized intake process to be utilized when veterans make initial contact with the department; two, ensure that all newly hired VAC employees are bilingual moving forward, particularly those in service delivery and those responsible for adjudicating claims; and, three, provide more training to staff.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Thank you very much. You're right on time.

I now give the floor to Mr. Jean-Guy Soulière.

Mr. Soulière, I must advise you that technical difficulties prevent Mr. Pizzino from taking part in the meeting.

You mentioned that you wanted to share your time, but the full time is allocated to you.

Mr. Soulière, you have five minutes.

6:55 p.m.

Jean-Guy Soulière President, National Association of Federal Retirees

Thank you very much, committee members, for inviting the National Association of Federal Retirees to speak today.

I would like to begin by recognizing that my colleagues and I are joining you from Ottawa, the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabeg people, who have lived on this land since time immemorial.

The National Association of Federal Retirees is the largest national advocacy organization for active and retired members of the Public Service of Canada, the Canadian Forces, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the federal judiciary, as well as their spouses and survivors.

With 170,000 members, including more than 60,000 veterans and their families, the association has been committed to improving the financial security, health and well-being of our members and all Canadians for over 60 years.

Federal Retirees is also proud to co-chair the Women Veterans Research and Engagement Network, or WREN. WREN's mission is to work collaboratively to ensure equitable lifetime outcomes for all veterans.

I am here with the association's CEO, Mr. Anthony Pizzino, and our staff director of advocacy, Sayward Montague. I will share my time with Mr. Pizzino, and we would all be pleased to respond to the questions the committee members may have at the end of the meeting.

Our remarks today are supplemented by a written brief, and our association stands by to participate in other areas identified for study by this committee.

I will turn to Anthony.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Go ahead, Mr. Pizzino.

6:55 p.m.

President, National Association of Federal Retirees

Jean-Guy Soulière

I think you're muted, Anthony.

I think he's trying to unmute.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

The clerk tells me that Ms. Sayward Montague will be presenting.

Ms. Montague, you have the floor for the remaining three minutes.

6:55 p.m.

Sayward Montague Director, Advocacy, National Association of Federal Retirees

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Anthony offers his apologies for the technical difficulties, but he will certainly be attentively watching the proceedings today.

Thank you, Jean-Guy, and thank you committee members for your time today.

One of the key metrics used to assess service delivery performance and to serve as a proxy for fairness is disability and benefit application wait times. However, to our knowledge there is no standard definition of what fair service means.

In the view of the association, fair service means equitable service, and it must also mean equitable outcomes. Having good clear data is essential in this, and it is incredibly difficult to locate disaggregated data to compare results, which committee members have noted during the course of this study.

Transparent, clear, readily available data can help determine whether there is more to the wait time story and whether it's a story that needs to be told in it's entirety. For example, we know that there are differences in wait times for francophone and anglophone veterans, but what we heard for the first time from the veterans ombudsman and the deputy veterans ombudsman when they appeared at this committee on Friday, March 22nd is that differences are compounded. Francophones wait longer, and women wait longer, but francophone women wait the longest.

Uneven service delivery is not just about how long some claims are backlogged, it is about why these claims are delayed or backlogged, identifying the differences and addressing them with equity in mind. Uneven service delivery and lack of fairness are symptoms of institutional and structural biases and are the result of the failure to respond to the complex intersectional nature of the human beings involved.

A veteran's identity is relevant to experiences during service, including service-related illness and injury, the outcomes they're likely to experience as a veteran, and the care and support they may require. It's also relevant when it comes to military and veteran health research.

We've made a number of recommendations in the brief that we've submitted, but it really comes down to data and transparent reporting to define and understand where the lack of fairness is worse; understanding that what we're seeing are symptoms of systemic inequity, both upstream and downstream; research and co-ordination; and ensuring that veterans have a voice in the services and the delivery of those services.

7 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Thank you very much.

There are no more speeches, so we're going to start asking questions.

I'm going to ask the first vice-chair of the committee, Mr. Caputo, to ask questions for six minutes.

Mr. Caputo, please tell us to whom your questions are addressed.

7 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Thank you, Chair.

As you and I had discussed, I had put a notice of motion on the floor at the last meeting, and I would ask that we debate that motion at approximately 8:15 today, if that's acceptable to the committee. If it appears that it's going to be unanimous, we can go a little later.

Well, thank you very much to all of our witnesses. I know that you've taken time out today to assist. Some of you have served in the military, and I thank you for that service, but all of you are serving at this very time. It's something that really warms my heart when I see the amount of service in the witnesses we have when it comes to helping out our brave soldiers.

The first question I have here I was going to address to Mr. Pizzino. He talked about fair service, which means equitable service and equitable outcomes, and I was struck by that.

By fair service I assume he means that people are getting timely service regardless of whether they are an English-speaking male or a French-speaking woman. Is that accurate?

He probably can't answer, but perhaps one of his colleagues might.

7 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Sorry, Mr. Pizzino has technical problems.

7 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Perhaps Ms. Montague can answer that.

He's nodding his head, so I'll take it as that.

One of the things that was mentioned as well is this idea that human beings are involved, and that's why we're ultimately here at committee on this topic. I would direct this to any of the witnesses, and particularly Mr. Laurion. He emerged from the forces about five years ago.

Have you seen an improvement or a deterioration in the last five or ten years in the quality of service that's being offered to veterans?

7 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Go ahead, Mr. Laurion.

7:05 p.m.

Veteran, As an Individual

Jean Laurion

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

When I left the Canadian Armed Forces, I had no other choice. I was released on medical grounds under paragraph 3(b).

Those who leave the forces are left to their own devices. When we're in the forces, we're well looked after, but when we leave, we don't know what to do or where to turn. We have problems, but we don't know who to turn to. When I submitted my first applications, after I got out of the forces, I was lucky because my wife knew someone who worked at Veterans Affairs Canada.

This person was able to help me by telling me what forms I had to fill out. Of course, I had to wait two years to get answers to these applications. I had problems with my lower back, middle back, neck, right hip and both knees. It took two years before I got answers to my first applications.

Now I also help people who have left the forces and have problems. When I see that they have problems, I ask them if they have applied to Veterans Affairs Canada, and often they tell me that they haven't.

So I help them fill out the application forms, because now I understand a little bit better how it works. Those who apply now get answers faster than I did. The wait times are shorter now than they were five years ago when I left the forces, but there is certainly room for improvement. Let me explain. When people leave the forces, their medical records are sent to the archives in Ottawa, but they are not sent to Veterans Affairs Canada. So when we go to Veterans Affairs Canada, they don't know us, they don't know who we are. If they had our medical file in hand, they could find out about our problems more quickly.

I suffer from diabetes and sleep apnea, two conditions for which I have to submit applications. The army paid for me to have a CPAP device and was providing me with diabetes medication. Now I have to submit an application to show that it is really the army's responsibility to pay for it and I find that incomprehensible.

These are the problems we experience.

7:05 p.m.

Conservative

Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Wow, there's a lot to digest there. Thank you for that. I'm sorry that it took you two years to get the help you needed after what you gave to this country.

I have a very brief question in a very brief time. Do you know why the medical file doesn't go directly to VAC? Has anybody ever told you why it goes into archiving rather than to the people who are likely going to need it?

7:05 p.m.

Veteran, As an Individual

Jean Laurion

I can't explain why our medical records don't follow us, but it's a very good question.

The left hand, which is the military, doesn't talk to the right hand, which is Veterans Affairs Canada. If they did, it would save a lot of time. That way, when a member is released, they could go to Veterans Affairs Canada, which would have a copy of their medical records. Naturally, this would help to determine their needs.

7:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Thank you, Mr. Laurion.

Now I'd like to invite MP Rechie Valdez for six minutes, please.

Go ahead.

7:05 p.m.

Liberal

Rechie Valdez Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and colleagues.

I want to thank the witnesses for all of your hard work and everything you do for our veterans across Canada every day, and a special thanks to you, Mr. Laurion, for serving our country for 37 years.

I'd like to start with Mrs. Lowther.

Veterans Canada has received funding from the veteran and family well-being fund on several occasions in recent years. Can you comment on why that funding is important and how Veterans Canada has been able to better serve our veterans since receiving those funds?

7:10 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer and Co-Founder, VETS Canada

Debbie Lowther

Yes, we have received funding from the veteran and family well-being fund. In 2014, we were awarded a contract that made us service providers to the department. In 2018, we were told that they could no longer continue that contract and we would have to apply for the funding through the veteran and family well-being fund.

Funding from the government is crucial to what we do. As I mentioned in my remarks, at least 80% of the referrals for assistance come from Veterans Affairs, so we are assisting the case managers in their day-to-day job of helping those veterans. We wouldn't be able to do it without that funding. We provide things to veterans. We help to prevent evictions. We get them into housing. We get them food, clothing and all of those things. We would not be able to do that without the funding from the government.

7:10 p.m.

Liberal

Rechie Valdez Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Thank you for sharing.

In 2019, Veterans Affairs established the office of women and LGBTQ2 veterans. Can you share what your interaction has been with it and if you've received any feedback with regard to that office?

7:10 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer and Co-Founder, VETS Canada

Debbie Lowther

We have not had a lot of interaction with that department. I personally have had a few conversations with some of the people working in that area.

The feedback that we've received, when it is mentioned to the veterans we support, is that a lot of them don't know a lot about it. They haven't been made aware of it, or they don't feel like that information has been communicated well to them. However, we make them aware that this section of the department is available, and we encourage them to reach out.