Veterans Affairs Committee on May 8th, 2024

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening, colleagues.

We are pleased to see you, Mr. Ledwell and Mr. Harris, and Minister Petitpas Taylor.

Ms. Petitpas Taylor, I want to commend you for attending the four-day summit in Montreal; I was also there. Wonderful that you did that at the beginning of your mandate.

My questions are not so pleasant, I'm afraid.

Are you willing to acknowledge that the government is responsible for the delays in the construction of the monument, owing to its various nonsensical decisions?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Desilets. I want to thank you as well for attending the stakeholder summit. It was very important to see you there.

As to the monument, I think we have to acknowledge that a number of problems delayed construction. In 2014, a site had been chosen for the monument, but in the end the site was not satisfactory to veterans. They told us they were unhappy with the fact that people would not be able to see the monument in the winter and that there could be flooding in the spring. So we restarted the process to choose a new site in 2015. Then the work began.

I also fully acknowledge that there were some delays relating to the whole issue of erecting the monument and selecting the monument's design team.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

So you do admit that your government is partly responsible for that.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I recognize that the whole selection process for the team who would build the monument took some time. We were careful to conduct the necessary consultations.

Now we are in the construction phase. We are working with the National Capital Commission to make sure the monument will indeed be unveiled.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Yes, we are aware of all of that.

The initial cost of the monument was $3.4 million. By August 2023, it had risen to $4.7 million. What is the current estimate?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

The most recent figure I received is the last amount you mentioned.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Perfect.

Our colleague Mr. Sarai, who is of course a member of this committee, stated the following on March 18: “The documents have shown that the government deviated from the established procurement process against the advice of Canadian Heritage officials.”

Do you accept that statement?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

If listening to veterans means deviating from the process, then the answer is yes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Okay.

You know, we and the veterans have a lot of trouble with that. We have talked about it a number of times. I would simply like to mention that a veterans' petition will be put forward soon, as some of my colleagues around the table know already. The person who started the petition said that the national monument has been marked by political scandal and interference, and that the political scandal amounted to interference that undermined the 10th anniversary of the mission in Afghanistan, that the political game overshadowed the intention of erecting the national monument and that, as a result, the monument no longer represented veterans' commitment and sacrifice. The petition will be circulated soon. That's why it is still hard for me to hear you say that this initiative represents the voice and input of veterans.

On another topic, a new colleague on the committee, Ms. Hepfner, has reviewed all the discussions and asked us whether the committee had discussed the idea of erecting two monuments. She does not see why that could not be done. Have you set aside funding for that?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

First of all, I had not heard about the petition at all. I have just learned something new today. That's good.

I have to tell you though, Mr. Desilets, that over the past nine months I have, as I said, had the opportunity to meet with hundreds if not thousands of veterans. When they talk to me about the monument commemorating the mission in Afghanistan, they simply ask me when it will be completed. That is the only thing they ask me. Just last week, I met with representatives of the Royal Canadian Legion here, in Ottawa, who also just wanted to make sure that the monument would be erected.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I understand, everyone is impatient.

I have to ask you nonetheless if you agree with Ms. Hepfner's remarks: Are there plans to erect two monuments?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Veterans of the Afghanistan mission have asked us for a national monument, and that is exactly what we are in the process of designing and erecting. With this national monument, we want to make sure they have a pilgrimage site to visit with their family and children. That is exactly what we are in the process of doing.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Perfect. You have not commented on Ms. Hepfner's request.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I am speaking about the veterans' request itself. Veterans want a national monument here, in Ottawa, and that is exactly what we are in the process of giving them.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Okay.

There are a lot of documents that the committee has requested but has not received. A colleague mentioned that earlier. We have also received documents under the Access to Information Act that are not among those provided by the department. I am referring to the conversations on April 15 between Steven Harris and Amy Meunier; we have not received those documents. There is some uncertainty, which concerns us, of course. We want transparency.

Based on these observations, we have filed a complaint against Veterans Affairs Canada with the Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada. The commissioner deemed the complaint admissible and opened an investigation into it. Can you confirm that your department will fully co-operate with that investigation and provide all the relevant documents that we wish to receive?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Madam Minister, we need an answer in 15 or 20 seconds because Mr. Desilet's time is up.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Mr. Desilets, if you are looking for documents from my department, I can guarantee that your request will be honoured. I have learned something new once again today. I will make sure that the documents you have requested from my department will be provided to you.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

They are documents from April 15; that just has to be checked. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Desilets.

Now I'd like to invite Ms. Blaney for six minutes.

Go ahead, please. The floor is yours.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair, and as always, everything is through the chair.

First of all, I'd like to thank the minister and her team for being here with us today. I appreciate the time. I am a little sad that we don't have the women's report tabled. There are a lot of things I would love to talk about, although I feel that this is not quite the right time. I do think it's really important to say that, in the testimony we heard, women spoke again and again about feeling invisible, both in their service and then afterwards in their treatment by VAC.

I would say that the number of women who are reaching out to our office, who want to be here when the tabling happens, who want to know when it's going to happen and who have put a lot of pressure on this committee to make sure it happens tells you that there's a lot of need for it, but there's also a lot of hope.

Sometimes it worries me to give people hope, because if there's no follow-through, it's more devastating. I hope that all of us in this place are carrying that very carefully.

In the context of that opening statement, you did mention the minister's advisory group on women veterans that you're going to have. I know you are not yet in a place where you can announce who that will be, but I am curious about a couple of things. What is the structure in terms of choosing who's going to be in that advisory group? Also, what are the commitments around diversity?

During the time when we were doing this amazing work—and I'm so grateful for it—we did identify that we did not see enough women veterans from the Black, indigenous and people-of-colour communities. We know it's going to be a great report, but there's definitely going to be a gap in that component.

I'm curious about how you're going to select these folks who will be guiding you. What is the commitment with respect to diversity? What is the commitment about its being largely veteran women?

Thank you.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you so much, Rachel, and for your leadership when it comes to this study and when it comes to women veterans. I know you were instrumental in that as well.

I certainly can't share at this table right now all of the terms of reference, because we haven't made them public yet, but I can guarantee you that, when it comes to the composition of the veterans advisory committee, the women's advisory committee, we certainly want to make sure that diversity is reflected within this group.

I also want to make sure that women veterans are going to be on this committee, whether retired CAF members or RCMP members.

I think it's really important to make sure we have a good cross-section of folks. Again I am relying on a group of women veterans, who have actually helped us construct the terms of reference, and also on the membership of this committee.

I want this committee to be for women and by women, and making sure we get input from them has been very valuable.

I want to thank the women who have helped put together the terms of reference, because I want to make sure they are comfortable with what we're moving forward with and that we can move the agenda forward.

Just as you don't, I don't want veterans to have expectations and then to feel that we've under-delivered, if you will. I carry that burden as well. Moving the needle when it comes to women veterans is really a priority of mine, and that is why the women's study that you guys did is so important, and that is why, to me, the creation of this advisory council is so important as well.

When you say that women veterans feel invisible and feel unseen within the department and throughout their career, I heard that at the summit and I hear it when I meet women veterans. When we know better, we need to do better, and that is really what I want to do.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

I just want to qualify that when I speak of women, I'm including trans women.

I also have to say that given the fierceness of the women who have been part of this study and the women who have stood in solidarity, I have no doubt that we will be pushed to do that work.

The next question I have, speaking of invisible women, is around the veterans survivor plan that was put forward around implementing supports for women who have married veterans after age 60.

We know that $150 million was allocated for that in 2019. We know that has not been implemented yet. I'm just wondering whether you have a date for when that's going to be implemented and what the delay is. Again, these are some of the poorest women across Canada, and there's a desire, of course, to address marriage after 60. I thought this would be the first step in that. After waiting for this many years, a lot of these women and their spouses are giving up hope, and I hate to see that happen.

I'm just wondering if we could have an implementation timeline for this.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you so much, Ms. Blaney, for that question. I know that this has been an area for which you've advocated for a number of years.

I'm going to be very honest. When I became the Minister of Veterans Affairs, I really thought that the creation of such a program would be fairly easy. Naively, I just thought that I was going to be able to do this, you know, very, very quickly. What I've come to realize, however, is that there could be some unintended consequences in moving forward with a program, so we really have to do our due diligence in making sure that, by creating a program, there are not going to be any unintended consequences. That is why it's taking longer than I had assumed to put together such a program.

I continue to work with my officials and to consult with other departments as well. Again, with respect to different groups, we fear there could be some broader implications with respect to other departments, and that is why it's taking longer than I had anticipated.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Blaney. You're right on time.

Mr. Paul‑Hus, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening, Madam Minister and gentlemen.

Madam Minister, we have had a number of meetings about the National Monument to Canada's Mission in Afghanistan, specifically last fall, with you and your colleague, the Minister of Heritage, Pascale St‑Onge. We had questions about the process and, above all, about the political decision that was made. The process established to select the team to design the monument was conducted very professionally, but a political decision was made. At that meeting last fall, your colleague Ms. St‑Onge was not at all aware of it. It was her predecessor, Pablo Rodriguez, who signed the document confirming the change in the winning team at the last minute. You learned about that when you took office, and now you know what happened.

In answering questions from my colleague from the Bloc Québécois earlier, you said it could be acceptable to deviate from the process when veterans were involved. We do not agree with that, Madam Minister. As a fatter of fact, we learned from testimony from all the experts we met, and documents from Léger confirmed it, that the consultation process was bogus.

We need more information. On December 15, 2023, members of the committee wrote to the committee chair, asking for an emergency meeting to adopt a motion ordering the production of certain documents, including all “memoranda, briefing notes, e-mails, correspondence or any other records of conversations or communications (including text messages, Microsoft Teams messages, WhatsApp messages, Signal messages and other electronic messaging), with regard to the National Monument to Canada's Mission in Afghanistan, transmitted since November 8, 2021, between … (vi) the Office of the Minister of Veterans Affairs and the Office of the Prime Minister.”

You said earlier that the documents had been provided. Will you undertake to provide those required documents to the committee within 21 days?