Veterans Affairs Committee on May 22nd, 2024

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think Ms. Blaney has offered an olive branch that I'd like to explore a little more. What I heard Ms. Blaney say is that she's concerned about process, and that's entirely valid. If there could be a discussion on process and how the process could be and should be improved, I think that's a discussion worth having.

She also said that we need to dispense with the political games. However, the last intervention from Mr. Richards started with him saying that we need to find out why the PMO interfered. That's what this is really about. Then he said that it's a simple request. Is it a simple request to send bureaucrats all over government combing through 10 years of documents to find every single text message, Microsoft Teams message, WhatsApp message, Signal message or any other electronic message between multiple departments, without regard for cabinet confidentiality or solicitor-client privilege?

This, in its present form, isn't about process. This is a fishing expedition that supports an obsession with attacking the Prime Minister. That's what this has descended into.

I'm entirely in agreement with Ms. Blaney that it would be appropriate for this committee to have a look at the process and suggest improvements. It is not appropriate for this committee to spend all kinds of resources, having people combing through documents and computer records, dating back 10 years, to see if we can stick it to the Prime Minister. That's what this is about.

Look, this is a bit about the boy who cried wolf. This is about the person who had multiple cases of veterans who were counselled to avail themselves of medical assistance in dying, but there was nothing established before the committee, except for the two cases acknowledged by the department. This is the boy who cried wolf when he said that the Prime Minister has outlawed prayer, and that fizzled.

Here we are again. The latest fishing expedition is to pin on the Prime Minister something that is, quite frankly, doing a disservice to veterans. What would do a service to veterans would be to have something as focused as what Ms. Blaney has suggested. I think that's an appropriate role for the committee to undertake.

The minute we can get back to that, we can move on. Let's take this out of the political smear and move it to the best interests of veterans. Then, I think we're doing what's expected of us and I'm sure you'd have agreement on this side of the table.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Paul‑Hus, you have the floor.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

May I remind you that in the official notes, it should say that the Conservative motion requested the documents as of November 8, 2021. When we tabled the motion, we were asking for documents from the last two years. So it's not true that we were asking public servants for documents from the last 10 years. It was the Liberal amendment that brought us to 2014.

Our party had asked for documents from the last two years, during the monument tender procedure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Paul‑Hus.

Does anyone else wish to speak?

As I said, we'd like to know—the clerk, the analyst and I—what we're going to do next week, given the studies and motions we have on the table.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Mr. Chair, if there are no other interventions, can we call the question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

That's what I want to verify. Does anyone else wish to speak? If not, we'll move on to the vote.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Can we call the question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

First, we'll vote on the subamendments. I see that, for the moment, no one has asked for the floor.

When I say we're going to vote on the subamendment, I'm talking about the one on the table, which is the one from Ms. Hepfner, who has asked to add a number of conditions in the letter that is going to be sent to the NCC. Let's make sure we understand what we're voting on.

Is that clear?

It seems we do. We will therefore vote on the subamendment presented by Ms. Hepfner.

I would therefore ask the clerk to please proceed with the vote.

(Subamendment agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Can we call the question on the main motion, please?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

We have to go back to the motion by Mr. Casey, because there was an amendment to it.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I ask that we call the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Are there any comments on the amendment presented by Mr. Casey, as amended? If not, we'll proceed to the vote.

So, Mr. Clerk, please, let's proceed.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Can we call the question on the main motion, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Ms. Hepfner, you have the floor.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I have another amendment to the main motion, which I think will help us co-operate, although it looks like Mr. Richards doesn't want to co-operate with other people around the table.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Excuse me, Ms. Hepfner. It's 6:30. I have to ask members of the committee if we'd like to continue, even though we started a bit later—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I move that we use all of the resources available to the committee and stay as long as needed to get to a vote.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

You don't have the floor to be able to move a motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Excuse me.

First of all, I'd like to begin by asking the members of the committee if they wish to continue this meeting for the next half hour, or if we adjourn it now.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Wait. First, do the members of the committee wish to continue for half an hour?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

All right. Then we'll continue for another half hour.

Ms. Hepfner, the floor is yours.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

In this amendment—we'll send a copy to the clerk so it's more clear—part (i) of paragraph (b) is asking for electronic communications between the Department of Veterans Affairs and the office of the Minister of Veterans Affairs. Part (ii) is asking for communications between the Department of Canadian Heritage and the office of the Minister of Canadian Heritage. Those stay as is, but the following five lines are deleted.

At the very end of the motion, after paragraph (e), we add, “That once the Committee receives the aforementioned information”—the Veterans Affairs and Heritage Canada information—“from the bodies outlined in point (b) and (d) and receives testimony from the witnesses identified in point (a) and (c), the committee discuss whether to request such information between (i) the Department of Veterans Affairs and the Privy Council Office, (ii) the Department of Canadian Heritage and the Privy Council Office, (iii) the Privy Council Office and the Office of the Prime Minister, (iv) the office of the Minister of Veterans Affairs and the Office of the Prime Minister, and (v) the office of the Minister of Canadian Heritage and the Office of the Prime Minister.”

The amendment would change this motion so we get the preliminary information. If the committee decides that it needs further information and that it would truly be valuable to go after the Prime Minister's Office, for example, we can continue. At least it gets us to a place where we can start to look at how this process was conducted.

I hope that's clear, Chair. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Ms. Hepfner.

I have Monsieur Paul-Hus and Ms. Blaney on the list.

Mr. Paul‑Hus, you have the floor.